Provenance or Pedigree 0

[Chicago Boy]

What’s your favorite and why ? 

[telerites]

Is provenance not inherit with a recognized pedigree?  Seems like you would be getting both with the ped?

That being said, I went to an auction in 2004 when Fred and Irene Henschel had their GA original owner collection auction.  Lots of great books and I actually met the Henschels.  It was great hearing their story and how the books had been stored away in a foot locker for all those years.  I won a couple which had been slabbed but no ped or collection label notation.  The provenance was documented and meeting them in person was a real treat. 

[Cat-Man_America]

18 hours ago, telerites said:

Is provenance not inherit with a recognized pedigree?  Seems like you would be getting both with the ped?

That being said, I went to an auction in 2004 when Fred and Irene Henschel had their GA original owner collection auction.  Lots of great books and I actually met the Henschels.  It was great hearing their story and how the books had been stored away in a foot locker for all those years.  I won a couple which had been slabbed but no ped or collection label notation.  The provenance was documented and meeting them in person was a real treat. 

In some cases there's overlap, but these classifications ...at least in respect to comics... differ and aren't interchangeable.  

Provenance, as I define it, provides a transactional history from a given point in time.  This usually refers to individual books sold or handed down through various owners. These may or may not be pedigree books.

Pedigree, with rare exception, indicates original owner status for sizable collections of merit (high grade).  The term pedigree is usually ascribed to collections, but may extend to legacy books, such as estate finds, celebrity owned books, file copies, etc.

This is my perspective, barring a better analysis.

[MrBedrock]

44 minutes ago, Cat-Man_America said:

In some cases there's overlap, but these classifications ...at least in respect to comics... differ and aren't interchangeable.  

Provenance, as I define it, provides a transactional history from a given point in time.  This usually refers to individual books sold or handed down through various owners. These may or may not be pedigree books.

Pedigree, with rare exception, indicates original owner status for sizable collections of merit (high grade).  The term pedigree is usually ascribed to collections, but may extend to legacy books, such as estate finds, celebrity owned books, file copies, etc.

This is my perspective, barring a better analysis.

That is a perfect explanation of the difference. Thanks.

[Chicago Boy]

The only thing I’d differ from above is the File copy. I think that is more provenance than pedigree secondary to the “ high grade “ comment 

[N e r V]

Provenance May be important if you’re looking into something like an ashcan or pay copy or something similar where you’re looking directly at its history which is often part of its value.

Pedigree usually speaks for itself unless you have a need to look into its provenance for either your own interest or to establish its authenticity.

File copies can be more slippery. I know for a fact many copies sold as file copies are in fact not. So for me I require provenance in most cases before accepting something as a true file copy unless it has an identifying mark to establish it as such. 

Thats my take on them at least.

[Chicago Boy]

36 minutes ago, N e r V said:

 

File copies can be more slippery. I know for a fact many copies sold as file copies are in fact not. So for me I require provenance in most cases before accepting something as a true file copy unless it has an identifying mark to establish it as such. 

 

How do you “ require provenance “ on a File copy ( sincerely asking ) 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Chicago Boy

[telerites]

3 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

In some cases there's overlap, but these classifications ...at least in respect to comics... differ and aren't interchangeable.  

Provenance, as I define it, provides a transactional history from a given point in time.  This usually refers to individual books sold or handed down through various owners. These may or may not be pedigree books.

Pedigree, with rare exception, indicates original owner status for sizable collections of merit (high grade).  The term pedigree is usually ascribed to collections, but may extend to legacy books, such as estate finds, celebrity owned books, file copies, etc.

This is my perspective, barring a better analysis.

I tried to say this about the overlap but I didn't use enough words 

[N e r V]

2 hours ago, Chicago Boy said:

How do you “ require provenance “ on a File copy ( sincerely asking ) 

Well some background on how you got it and from whom and why you think it’s a file copy for a start.

I’ve had a number of the Poughkeepsie Dell File Copies and Harvey files copies (along with a fair amount of original art) since the 1980’s. I have no interest in parting with them but if I was selling them I could provide someone with their history on how I acquired them. 

I have issues if a seller of a file copy has little history on it. I’ve bought some nice books from sellers who claim they were file copies but I wouldn’t claim them as such myself without more evidence. File copies don’t really count that much of a premium over an equal condition copy vs say a Mile High or another pedigree might so I don’t find it a big deal by people claiming something is a file copy I just have my doubts if they don’t have enough background on it.

I have some books I purchased as file copies from sellers who didn’t have a lot of background information on them so maybe they are or maybe they aren’t. That’s all.

Edited May 27, 2019 by N e r V

[Marty Mann]

Unfortunately  my collection doesn't fit in either category.

Marty

[Chicago Boy]

1 hour ago, N e r V said:

Well some background on how you got it and from whom and why you think it’s a file copy for a start.

I’ve had a number of the Poughkeepsie Dell File Copies and Harvey files copies (along with a fair amount of original art) since the 1980’s. I have no interest in parting with them but if I was selling them I could provide someone with their history on how I acquired them. 

I have issues if a seller of a file copy has little history on it. I’ve bought some nice books from sellers who claim they were file copies but I wouldn’t claim them as such myself without more evidence. File copies don’t really count that much of a premium over an equal condition copy vs say a Mile High or another pedigree might so I don’t find it a big deal by people claiming something is a file copy I just have my doubts if they don’t have enough background on it.

I have some books I purchased as file copies from sellers who didn’t have a lot of background information on them so maybe they are or maybe they aren’t. That’s all.

[Chicago Boy]

Grades being equal any idea what kind of premium a file copy or pedigree garners percentage wise ?  I realize all file copies and peds are not equal.  Let’s say a Marvel/ DC File copy and a Mile High or Allentown ??

[Primetime]

18 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

Grades being equal any idea what kind of premium a file copy or pedigree garners percentage wise ?  I realize all file copies and peds are not equal.  Let’s say a Marvel/ DC File copy and a Mile High or Allentown ??

I would value a Ped over a File copy. How much more? Not sure, but books being distributed, bought and sold at a single newwstand, and kept for many years in top notch condition is much more desirable than the some book(s) that were never circulated and were just stuffed in the publisher's file cabinet. Although, the Marvel 1 File/Pay copy might make for an exception 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Primetime

[Chicago Boy]

20 minutes ago, Primetime said:

I would value a Ped over a File copy. How much more? Not sure, but books being distributed, bought and sold at a single newwstand, and kept for many years in top notch condition is much more desirable than the some book(s) that were never circulated and were just stuffed in the publisher's file cabinet. Although, the Marvel 1 File/Pay copy might make for an exception 

Is the marvel  one file/pay copy the one for sale right now for 75k? 

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, Marty Mann said:

Unfortunately  my collection doesn't fit in either category.

Marty

You collection oozes more provenance than any other collection I've ever heard about.  You not only know where every book has been since the 1940s, you know where many were purchased!  

[sfcityduck]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

Is the marvel  one file/pay copy the one for sale right now for 75k? 

NO.

[Chicago Boy]

2 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

NO.

Anyone got a pic. Would love to see it.  

[sfcityduck]

Here's my take.  There are four boxes:

[ ] A pedigree is nothing more than a group of high grade original owner comics which the marketplace has deemed as having special qualities which garner a premium in price.  But, because pedigrees are awarded to collections, not individual comics, the pedigree is not a guarantee of high grade for every comic in the collection.    

[ ] Provenance is nothing more than the chain of ownership of a comic.

[ ] A file copy is a comic which was stored by the publisher.

[ ] An "association" copy is a comic which was owned by someone famous or with import to the comic collecting community.

I can think of only one batch of comics which really ticks all four boxes.  A "Gaines File Copy" is a high grade original owner comic, with impeccable provenance having gone from the OO straight to the marketplace with very tight indexing and controls, and Gaines was the publisher, and Gaines is a famous name in the comic book world.

For me, "provenance" is on no importance unless it is being used to support that a comic comes from a pedigree, publisher file, or has had a famous former owner (Cage, maybe Berk to us geeks).  Without provenance, a claim that a comic is a pedigree or file copy or has a certain association is meaningless.

A file copy is something I find cool because of its association with the publisher.  But, I would not buy a file copy merely because of that association.  Some file copies have undesirable page quality.  However, other file copies may well be the best copies around.  So in some cases a "file copy" notation is equivalent to a pedigree as to what it tells you GENERALLY about the group of books from that publish.

A pedigree to me is just an indication of quality.  Given that the top two prices ever paid for comic books were for non-pedigree comics, it is pretty obvious that a comic can be a great comic - the best available - and not come from a pedigree.  Non-pedigree comics have gotten huge multiples that dwarf pedigree or file copies.  So pedigree is just an info point for me.  For others, I know, it can be a boasting point - but I don't think that's true for every pedigree.  I would never pay more for a lesser quality pedigree than a higher quality non-pedigree just to boast about owning the pedigree.  I think the Dentist got it right when he ditched his MH/Church Superman 1 for a better quality Superman 1.  

For me, the "association" is the most important NON-GRADE factor.  It's the association that makes me think a comic is worth more than an equivalent copy without that association.  It's about the story of the comic.  I would buy a beater Duck book for over its grade value because it was owned by Barks and has his stamp on it.  I'd buy a Mile High/Church comic at a premium because of Edgar's association and the import of that pedigree to comic history, even when we're talking about a genre and grade that's not worthy of such a premium.  Some will do that for a "Cage copy."  But, I value industry associations the most, comic history second, and famous people are a distant third. 

Just 2 cents.

 

[Primetime]

24 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

Is the marvel  one file/pay copy the one for sale right now for 75k? 

No. 

[sfcityduck]

19 minutes ago, Chicago Boy said:

Anyone got a pic. Would love to see it.