Why don’t grading companies/collectors consider Marvel Age 97 the first appearance of Darkhawk? 0

[whetteon]

Darkhawk right? 

[Sauce Dog]

How has this thread gone on this long without reference photos of the actual issue?

Key points about this Marvel Age book to consider:

- Darkhawk on cover (and it is an amazing cover, this is the selling point IMO)
- Darkhawk preview art above series synopsis
- 5 page preview, which does NOT contain Darkhawk in the story pages. At best this is the first appearance of Chris Powell (later becomes Darkhawk) who appears in only one panel.

[revat]

On 8/19/2021 at 9:35 AM, Sauce Dog said:

How has this thread gone on this long without reference photos of the actual issue?

Key points about this Marvel Age book to consider:

- Darkhawk on cover (and it is an amazing cover, this is the selling point IMO)
- Darkhawk preview art above series synopsis
- 5 page preview, which does NOT contain Darkhawk in the story pages. At best this is the first appearance of Chris Powell (later becomes Darkhawk) who appears in only one panel.

THanks for posting this, and they are reasonable points.  These are fun comic debates, which sometimes have big financial effects (in this case nearly 30 years later).  I think we all get why no one considered this the first appearance AT THE TIME, and often the first impression is the lasting one.  But I think ultimately, each person (who cares enough) would lay out the case for themselves and see what they value most that they personally think makes something a first appearance.  

Does the intent of the creator/artist or the publisher AT THAT TIME factor in?  Just what the market has decided now?  Or comic dealers perceptions (or how they were sold by the comic companies?)?  Actual fans?  There's too many exceptions to too many rules.

In hindsight for me now, I think this qualifies (not by much) as the first appearance of both Darkhawk and Chris Powell.

 

For me I do a straight side by side list of points in favor of first appearance.

Marvel Preview - 

1st Cover appearance - An original cover where Darkhawk is the dominant featured character, not the same cover as Darkhawk 1.  

1st Chronologically in terms of publishing and release for sale

- Darkhawk preview art above series synopsis (with full half-splash of DH), I assume the first at length synopsis for Darkhawk in an actual comic book

1st Appearance of Chris Powell in a story, he's named, he speaks in three panels, shows up in 1.5 panels, performs the action of hitting his brother with paper.  Of course we learn much later that Darkhawk and Chris Powell are not exaaccctly the same...possibly a different debate.  IF you're into comics and you hear the name Chris Powell, you think "Oh that guy's Darkhawk" as opposed to like D*ck Grayson would might be RObin or Nightwing or the New Batman or Agent Grayson or whatever.

- a five-page preview is pretty long, you get an idea of what the story is.  One could see it as its own little story that is repeated and continued in DH 1.  The Marvel Age could be seen as a collection of short stories.  And it was published for the purpose of selling on its own (and also to advertise other comics).

 

Darkhawk 1

- Full story as it was likely intended by writer/creator.

- 1st actual (and full) appearance of Darkhawk in armor in Storyline, talks, does stuff

 

So I lean Marvel Age, but don't mind anyone thinking the other way.  Have fun with it, and don't be disingenuous when trying to sell and everything is fine.

 

 

As for the grading companies, when CGC first started no one cared about the preview.  SO they graded a bunch with DH1 as the 1st app.  And now they'd rather be consistent than create confusion, and DH1 is still justifiable even if not the best answer.  So they leave it.

Edited August 20, 2021 by revat

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/20/2021 at 11:52 AM, revat said:

Does the intent of the creator/artist or the publisher AT THAT TIME factor in?

Intent as to what? It's the intent of the company to sell as many books as possible. It's the intent of the creative team to create an interesting comic that people will want to buy.

On 8/20/2021 at 11:52 AM, revat said:

One could see it as its own little story that is repeated and continued in DH 1.  The Marvel Age could be seen as a collection of short stories.  And it was published for the purpose of selling on its own (and also to advertise other comics).

One can see it however one wants, but seeing it a certain way doesn't make that the truth.The preview is part of a story, not its own little story; for the full story you have to get the comic. Marvel Age was not a collection of short stories. You're confusing that will anthology publications like Marvel Comics Presents, which contained multiple stories.

[revat]

On 8/20/2021 at 12:32 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Intent as to what? It's the intent of the company to sell as many books as possible. It's the intent of the creative team to create an interesting comic that people will want to buy.

One can see it however one wants, but seeing it a certain way doesn't make that the truth.The preview is part of a story, not its own little story; for the full story you have to get the comic. Marvel Age was not a collection of short stories. You're confusing that will anthology publications like Marvel Comics Presents, which contained multiple stories.

Well as to the intent, I would bring up domino with respect to Rob Liefeld.  He has stated definitively in the past few years that Domino’s first appearance was x-force 11.  But I think if you read through the comics it’s pretty clear she’s in x-force 8, albeit a flashback.  And obviously what we now know later to have been an impostor Domino was in new mutants 98.  
 

how much of the storyline was already thought out when new mutants 98 came out?  Did the storyline change?  Did the writer have a different understanding than Rob did, should the writer’s opinion matter more?  What if the editor forced a change in intended storyline?  And now 30 years later, are the memories complete or true?  
 

Of course we might never know.  And I’m not saying there’s a direct correlation to Darkhawk, just that the announced intent can play a factor in how Cgc rules, and public perception 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/20/2021 at 3:50 PM, revat said:

Well as to the intent, I would bring up domino with respect to Rob Liefeld.  He has stated definitively in the past few years that Domino’s first appearance was x-force 11.  But I think if you read through the comics it’s pretty clear she’s in x-force 8, albeit a flashback.  And obviously what we now know later to have been an impostor Domino was in new mutants 98.  
 

how much of the storyline was already thought out when new mutants 98 came out?  Did the storyline change?  Did the writer have a different understanding than Rob did, should the writer’s opinion matter more?  What if the editor forced a change in intended storyline?  And now 30 years later, are the memories complete or true?  
 

Of course we might never know.  And I’m not saying there’s a direct correlation to Darkhawk, just that the announced intent can play a factor in how Cgc rules, and public perception 

Liefeld's intention is to rake in as much money in signatures fees as possible. X-Force 8 is the clear winner here, regardless of what he says. Or New Mutants 98, since that's where the Domino design was established. (But he already has tons of people paying him money to sign that book.)

It's clear, if you ever read a book that Rob wrote, that he doesn't give much thought to things like plot. He just goes with whatever he thinks is cool.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/20/2021 at 3:50 PM, revat said:

Of course we might never know.  And I’m not saying there’s a direct correlation to Darkhawk, just that the announced intent can play a factor in how Cgc rules, and public perception 

Also, CGC doesn't "rule" on anything except for grade. They're the experts in the condition of a collectible. Adding notes on the label is more of a courtesy, if they can verify that the note to be added to a label is accurate. Sometimes they screw that up.

[whetteon]

More importantly, where aren't there more Darkhawk #5's CGC in 9.8 out there? 

[revat]

On 8/23/2021 at 8:29 AM, whetteon said:

More importantly, where aren't there more Darkhawk #5's CGC in 9.8 out there? 

i don't think there's any reason to slab it? and the paper is trash. 

Though ironically its the DH issue with the most versions (not including foreign versions).

Direct

Newsstand

2nd Print

Mark Jeweler's Insert Newsstand.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/23/2021 at 3:58 PM, revat said:

i don't think there's any reason to slab it? and the paper is trash. 

Though ironically its the DH issue with the most versions (not including foreign versions).

Direct

Newsstand

2nd Print

Mark Jeweler's Insert Newsstand.

Why is there a second print?

[Lazyboy]

On 8/23/2021 at 5:08 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Why is there a second print?

JC Penney

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/23/2021 at 9:38 PM, Lazyboy said:

JC Penney

Ah. I generally consider those reprints rather than second prints. People may not see a difference, but when I think "second print" I think "we didn't print enough copies to satisfy initial demand," and when I think reprint, I think "we want to publish this story for a reason other than normal monthly distribution of a comic.

[Lazyboy]

On 8/24/2021 at 7:52 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Ah. I generally consider those reprints rather than second prints. People may not see a difference, but when I think "second print" I think "we didn't print enough copies to satisfy initial demand," and when I think reprint, I think "we want to publish this story for a reason other than normal monthly distribution of a comic.

I totally agree.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/24/2021 at 8:52 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Ah. I generally consider those reprints rather than second prints. People may not see a difference, but when I think "second print" I think "we didn't print enough copies to satisfy initial demand," and when I think reprint, I think "we want to publish this story for a reason other than normal monthly distribution of a comic.

To clarify, all second prints, third prints, etc. would be reprints, but not all reprints qualify as a sequential print

[whetteon]

On 8/23/2021 at 2:58 PM, revat said:

i don't think there's any reason to slab it? and the paper is trash. 

Though ironically its the DH issue with the most versions (not including foreign versions).

Direct

Newsstand

2nd Print

Mark Jeweler's Insert Newsstand.

Well, I mean, I would like to buy all versions but than again I'm cheap so the prices offered have to be $75 and under. It's a better deal than most of that modern drek that people rush to slab for no reasons other than the hopes and dreams of epic returns. Same problem with New Warriors #5 too. Get them CGCed people! I'm a buyer! And no, I'm not going to cgc them because I can never find the perfect copy. Sighs.

[zhamlau]

On 6/15/2019 at 4:05 PM, zhamlau said:

But it’s evidence of market acceptance. That issue, had it just been some issue about submariner, would be worth a fraction of what it is now. Scarcity alone does not determine price if so IWs would sell for well over their current market.

 

I point out price as yet another example of that market treating this book as if its the true first. 

Just had a post from multiple years ago "reacted to"...that's a first.

On the plus side, I notice CGC 9.8's of Marvel Age 97 sell nearly 25-50% on average more then DH 1 in similar grade. Maybe Overstreet and CGC had decided it doesn't count, but fans seem to be speaking with their wallets as to which book is more important to them.

[Lazyboy]

On 8/27/2021 at 12:10 AM, zhamlau said:

Just had a post from multiple years ago "reacted to"...that's a first.

On the plus side, I notice CGC 9.8's of Marvel Age 97 sell nearly 25-50% on average more then DH 1 in similar grade. Maybe Overstreet and CGC had decided it doesn't count, but fans seem to be speaking with their wallets as to which book is more important to them.

You meant to post "15 times harder to get right now", right?

[zhamlau]

 

 

On 8/27/2021 at 6:40 AM, Lazyboy said:

On 8/27/2021 at 1:10 AM, zhamlau said:

Just had a post from multiple years ago "reacted to"...that's a first.

On the plus side, I notice CGC 9.8's of Marvel Age 97 sell nearly 25-50% on average more then DH 1 in similar grade. Maybe Overstreet and CGC had decided it doesn't count, but fans seem to be speaking with their wallets as to which book is more important to them.

You meant to post "15 times harder to get right now", right?

Lot of books have low population reports that don’t explode in value.

It’s is rarer in census no doubt but that isn’t the end all be all. Books like Marvel Age 56 and 32 are prime era x-men coves that have census populations under 5 with very well known cover artists. They each sold auction style for between 18-56 bucks recently. 
 

Even raw the Marvel age outsells Dark Hawk 1 from what I see and I imagine they have comparable print runs (no where near your 15x number especially).

Anyway prices aside, can we stop acting poorly with all the attempts at disrespecting others simply cause we don’t agree with their argument? I know it’s probably a generational thing but its…weird. Like what is the purpose of that? Someone you don’t know and have no history with (that I’m aware of anyway) disagrees with a position you have, you have to try and mock them for fear of disagreement?

Maybe I’m right, maybe you are, maybe it’s in the middle but can’t we just keep it civil especially to start with?

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by zhamlau
Weird spacing issue when posted

[Lazyboy]

On 8/27/2021 at 8:23 AM, zhamlau said:

Lot of books have low population reports that don’t explode in value.

Because they haven't been hyped (at least not by the right  people).

On 8/27/2021 at 8:23 AM, zhamlau said:

It’s is rarer in census no doubt but that isn’t the end all be all. Books like Marvel Age 56 and 32 are prime era x-men coves that have census populations under 5 with very well known cover artists. They each sold auction style for between 18-56 bucks recently. 

Again, the  don't have copies to sell so they haven't been pumping them (most likely with lies).

On 8/27/2021 at 8:23 AM, zhamlau said:

Anyway prices aside, can we stop acting poorly with all the attempts at disrespecting others simply cause we don’t agree with their argument? I know it’s probably a generational thing but its…weird.

Generational? How old do you think I am? Anyway, disrespecting terrible arguments is just an intelligence thing.

On 8/27/2021 at 8:23 AM, zhamlau said:

Maybe I’m right,

No.

On 8/27/2021 at 8:23 AM, zhamlau said:

maybe you are,

Yes.

On 8/27/2021 at 8:23 AM, zhamlau said:

maybe it’s in the middle

No.

On 8/27/2021 at 8:23 AM, zhamlau said:

but can’t we just keep it civil especially to start with?

What's not civil? The only problem I see here is that some people have no understanding of storytelling or basic economics and it causes them to post ridiculous things.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/27/2021 at 9:23 AM, zhamlau said:

 

 

Lot of books have low population reports that don’t explode in value.

It’s is rarer in census no doubt but that isn’t the end all be all. Books like Marvel Age 56 and 32 are prime era x-men coves that have census populations under 5 with very well known cover artists. They each sold auction style for between 18-56 bucks recently. 
 

Even raw the Marvel age outsells Dark Hawk 1 from what I see and I imagine they have comparable print runs (no where near your 15x number especially).

Anyway prices aside, can we stop acting poorly with all the attempts at disrespecting others simply cause we don’t agree with their argument? I know it’s probably a generational thing but its…weird. Like what is the purpose of that? Someone you don’t know and have no history with (that I’m aware of anyway) disagrees with a position you have, you have to try and mock them for fear of disagreement?

Maybe I’m right, maybe you are, maybe it’s in the middle but can’t we just keep it civil especially to start with?

 

Books with low census counts that don't explode in value typically aren't desirable books… which is why they have low census counts. Regarding Marvel Age 97 vs. Darkhawk 1, the issue isn't how many were printed, it's how many survive in high grade. I picked up both books new. I never bagged my issues of Marvel Age because it's not a comic; it's a news magazine. I think a lot of other collectors treated the books the same way, which is why it is much tougher to find Marvel Age in high grade. Action Comics #1 had a print run that was multiple times of both of these books combined. That doesn't matter, because the only factor now is how many are still available, and the condition that they survived in.