I have a TOMB OF DRACULA 1 in what I believe is 9.8 condition with JERRY CONWAY'S signature on the cover. If I submit to CGC could I get a BLUE LABEL with a notation stating JERRY CONWAY WRITTEN ON COVER, or do I have to get the dreaded GREEN LABEL ? 2 2

[Sanman9840]

[Real Elijah Snow]

Default you would get a green label for whatever the book would have gotten without the sig, but you can request a blue that will be downgraded. 

You're better off with green. 

 

[batmiesta]

Why did you let someone write on it?  

[drotto]

Green lable is the grade it would get without the "defect," blue lable will consider the signature a defect and downgrade accordingly for writing in the cover.

 

Other companies offer signature verification, I am not sure how accurate thevvarification is, and the market seems to agree since you do not see price increases similar to SS series, if any at all.

[Sanman9840]

I hate to say it but I guess I'll drop it off with CBCS for their signature verification slab. It's a shame CGC doesn't have signature verification. I have a lot of books that were signed before CGC started witnessing signatures. I prefer the CGC cases over the CBCS cases but I'm not taking a hit on a grade or a green label. 

[drotto]

14 hours ago, Sanman9840 said:

I hate to say it but I guess I'll drop it off with CBCS for their signature verification slab. It's a shame CGC doesn't have signature verification. I have a lot of books that were signed before CGC started witnessing signatures. I prefer the CGC cases over the CBCS cases but I'm not taking a hit on a grade or a green label. 

Not sure doing that will add much value to the books.  It will be protected in a nice case, but the signature verification is not worth anything.  The issue is, and the reason that CGC does not do verification, is that verifying signatures takes a significant level of skill, training and often research. Basically, an expert in the field needs to examine the signature say it is real, and be willing to publicly put their reputation on the line. Since we have no idea who is being used, and what their qualifications are, the verification on a label  caries no weight. 

 

In addition, even the acknowledged experts generally hedge their bets.  It is very rare they will say with 100% certainty any signature is real.  The will generally use a short list a phrasings such as: it is very likely authentic, it is likely authentic, I can't tell, it is likely fake, or it is fake. Even the best people at this are still that, just an expert opinion, it will never bee definitive. CGC's policy of witnessed signature is the only 100% way to be sure. So a label saying signature verified (meaning 100% guaranteed) does not allow any wiggle room, and legally would not hold up.

[shadroch]

Please pass the kool aid when you are done.

[Sanman9840]

O.K. if CGC won't verify a signature how about Jerry Conway himself.  If I take the book to JERRY CONWAY with a CGC representative and he says it's his signature would that be enough to get a CGC YELLOW LABEL?

[porcupine48]

No

[porcupine48]

Well,if you got him to sign it again in front of a CGC witness,yes.

[The Lions Den]

37 minutes ago, Sanman9840 said:

O.K. if CGC won't verify a signature how about Jerry Conway himself.  If I take the book to JERRY CONWAY with a CGC representative and he says it's his signature would that be enough to get a CGC YELLOW LABEL?

Please keep in mind that CGC graders aren't signature experts; they just grade the books. Like the porcupine said, Gerry Conway would have to sign the book again in front of a CGC rep in order to validate his signature...and the other signature would still be just a name written on the cover in marker...

Edited July 18, 2019 by The Lions Den

[BrooksR]

I've read posts on these forums a few times that say that non cgc witnessed signatures are worthless.  By this argument no signature obtained before cgc's program would have any value, including the ones by writers/artists that died before that program started.  Would you say that to people that collect presidential/historical signatures?  There are people that have trained for years to recognize legitimate signatures for collectors/museums/courts. Their findings are not as certain as a witnessed and instantly sealed book but it does hold some weight.  Serious collectors have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars at prestigious auctions for autographs from Babe Ruth, Albert Einstein, Abraham Lincoln etc. Do you think they all have no value?  Drotto is right to say that the reputation of the expert is key.  I know cbcs uses beckett's authentication people.  Do they have a bad reputation? 

I've been out of comic collecting since before grading services were even a thing and have just recently come back so I'm still trying to figure all of this out 

[Bomber-Bob]

2 hours ago, BrooksR said:

I've read posts on these forums a few times that say that non cgc witnessed signatures are worthless.  By this argument no signature obtained before cgc's program would have any value, including the ones by writers/artists that died before that program started.  Would you say that to people that collect presidential/historical signatures?  There are people that have trained for years to recognize legitimate signatures for collectors/museums/courts. Their findings are not as certain as a witnessed and instantly sealed book but it does hold some weight.  Serious collectors have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars at prestigious auctions for autographs from Babe Ruth, Albert Einstein, Abraham Lincoln etc. Do you think they all have no value?  Drotto is right to say that the reputation of the expert is key.  I know cbcs uses beckett's authentication people.  Do they have a bad reputation? 

I've been out of comic collecting since before grading services were even a thing and have just recently come back so I'm still trying to figure all of this out 

Everything you said is true but it's probably not worth slabbing a non cgc witnessed book. As mentioned above, by the Lion'sDen, CGC only grades the books. They do not validate signatures. 

[seanfingh]

I love signed books as much or more than anyone. No one should have been anywhere near that copy with a pen unless a CGC witness was involved. Now you have a 9.4+ copy that is de-valued by a huge factor.

[MGsimba77]

2 hours ago, seanfingh said:

I love signed books as much or more than anyone. No one should have been anywhere near that copy with a pen unless a CGC witness was involved. Now you have a 9.4+ copy that is de-valued by a huge factor.

He indicated that he got books signed before cgc came on the scene. Maybe having a reputable verification service present at the time like PSA would have helped instead of just having them signed. If he insists on having it slabbed better to go with cbcs otherwise just keep it in a nice bag & board. Perhaps put it in a custom tomb of Dracula frame and display it on the wall?

[BrooksR]

So what to do with older signed books?  Are the authentications by other services not a good option? 

I think CGC should offer this service.  Even if it's not as good as the witnessed service it's a market they're not tapping that competitor companies are.  I'm sure a lot of the people using the other services would like to use cgc but feel they have no choice if they have older signed books.  Sure there will be people that would not want to buy an unwitnessed book no matter who does it, but there are people that are satisfied with authenticated signatures.  Maybe the investment in finding respected experts is seen as too much to make it profitable, where as beckett already had experts that have been doing it for baseball cards.

I myself have only one signed comic, a Sandman 1 signed by McKean and Gaiman.  I got the signatures myself back in the late nineties so I personally know they're real but there's no reason for anyone to believe me if ever I do need to part with it, I think it's nice to have experts look at it.  It's better than nothing, which is the only other option for older books.

[seanfingh]

13 minutes ago, MGsimba77 said:

He indicated that he got books signed before cgc came on the scene. Maybe having a reputable verification service present at the time like PSA would have helped instead of just having them signed. If he insists on having it slabbed better to go with cbcs otherwise just keep it in a nice bag & board. Perhaps put it in a custom tomb of Dracula frame and display it on the wall?

I think any of those are good choices.  It just bums me out because it appears to be a super high grade copy. Just beautiful.

11 minutes ago, BrooksR said:

So what to do with older signed books?  Are the authentications by other services not a good option? 

I think CGC should offer this service.  Even if it's not as good as the witnessed service it's a market they're not tapping that competitor companies are.  I'm sure a lot of the people using the other services would like to use cgc but feel they have no choice if they have older signed books.  Sure there will be people that would not want to buy an unwitnessed book no matter who does it, but there are people that are satisfied with authenticated signatures.  Maybe the investment in finding respected experts is seen as too much to make it profitable, where as beckett already had experts that have been doing it for baseball cards.

I myself have only one signed comic, a Sandman 1 signed by McKean and Gaiman.  I got the signatures myself back in the late nineties so I personally know they're real but there's no reason for anyone to believe me if ever I do need to part with it, I think it's nice to have experts look at it.  It's better than nothing, which is the only other option for older books.

I have an entire longbox of signed raw comics. I absolutely love them. I don't care whether they are authenticated or not. I got them all myself.  The only issue is resale. That ship has sailed, mostly because of the accomplished fraudsters and all the nightmare situations with autographed sports memorabilia.

[MGsimba77]

3 minutes ago, seanfingh said:

11 minutes ago, MGsimba77 said:

He indicated that he got books signed before cgc came on the scene. Maybe having a reputable verification service present at the time like PSA would have helped instead of just having them signed. If he insists on having it slabbed better to go with cbcs otherwise just keep it in a nice bag & board. Perhaps put it in a custom tomb of Dracula frame and display it on the wall?

I think any of those are good choices.  It just bums me out because it appears to be a super high grade copy. Just 

Eh...cgc isn't the end all be all of certification. He'd be fine with a competitor's slab. Personally I'd slab it with the others guys and hang it on my wall in a frame. Preferably a custom frame. Much better than having it sit in a vault

[The Lions Den]

11 hours ago, BrooksR said:

I've read posts on these forums a few times that say that non cgc witnessed signatures are worthless.  By this argument no signature obtained before cgc's program would have any value, including the ones by writers/artists that died before that program started.  Would you say that to people that collect presidential/historical signatures?  There are people that have trained for years to recognize legitimate signatures for collectors/museums/courts. Their findings are not as certain as a witnessed and instantly sealed book but it does hold some weight.  Serious collectors have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars at prestigious auctions for autographs from Babe Ruth, Albert Einstein, Abraham Lincoln etc. Do you think they all have no value?  Drotto is right to say that the reputation of the expert is key.  I know cbcs uses beckett's authentication people.  Do they have a bad reputation? 

I've been out of comic collecting since before grading services were even a thing and have just recently come back so I'm still trying to figure all of this out 

I agree with you on this. I do think that an expert opinion makes a difference, not just to the owner of the item, but also to a potential buyer. The key is to have it authenticated by a true expert in the industry. And to be completely honest, I'm not sure how much Gerry Conway's signature would increase the value of this book...  

[jason4]

On 7/18/2019 at 10:30 AM, BrooksR said:

I've read posts on these forums a few times that say that non cgc witnessed signatures are worthless.  By this argument no signature obtained before cgc's program would have any value, including the ones by writers/artists that died before that program started.  Would you say that to people that collect presidential/historical signatures?  There are people that have trained for years to recognize legitimate signatures for collectors/museums/courts. Their findings are not as certain as a witnessed and instantly sealed book but it does hold some weight.  Serious collectors have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars at prestigious auctions for autographs from Babe Ruth, Albert Einstein, Abraham Lincoln etc. Do you think they all have no value?  Drotto is right to say that the reputation of the expert is key.  I know cbcs uses beckett's authentication people.  Do they have a bad reputation? 

I've been out of comic collecting since before grading services were even a thing and have just recently come back so I'm still trying to figure all of this out 

This is a really good and fair post. Well said.

Edited July 20, 2019 by jason4