Some Guys Get All The Breaks - 8.5 to 9.2

[comicwiz]

I see buying the label as the primary objective.

 

 

OF COURSE IT IS.

 

Its not as clear cut as your making it out be.

 

If the book had been advertised as a pressed 9.2 (pre-press 8.5), you can throw this "buy the label" perception right out the window along with the value of the book, as it would sooner be treated as an 8.5 than a 9.2.

 

Rather, I see the primary objective of dealers engaging in this scavenging practice as "simulating NM yields on their books", which then goes hand-in-hand with scouring the marketplace for suckers well-versed in the high-grade-freak camp and whose primary objective is to buy the label.

[nearmint]

My understanding is Mr Ewert ranks high on the chart for pressing books that he buys or owns.

 

Which is exactly why I will never buy a book from Mr. Ewert due to, IMHO, his unethical sales practices.

 

Mark, isn't that a bit simplistic? The only difference between JE and many other dealers is that he's less discreet.

 

Would you buy from Richard Evans, who publicly admitted at your panel in SD that he would not reveal a book has been pressed unless specifically asked? And if your answer is yes, you would buy from Richard, but you'd ask the question, why not operate the same way with JE?

 

How about Heritage? There are an awful lot of nice books in the August auction. Are you going to take the same ethical stance against them because SOME of the books in the auction have been pressed?

 

What prominent dealers and/or auction houses pass your ethical standards?

[Mr. Zipper]

Rather, I see the primary objective of dealers engaging in this scavenging practice as "simulating NM yields on their books", which then goes hand-in-hand with scouring the marketplace for suckers well-versed in the high-grade-freak camp and whose primary objective is to buy the label.

 

 

Joseph, you are the King.

 

[Aman619]

boy this thread really underscores some thoughts I've had recently, and was going to (maybe) start a thread on... except we have been over it so many times before that we all know the various answers and arguments pro and con.

 

The subject is "Our Continued Reliance on CGCs Grade on the Label" to dictate the values we assign to the books we buy coupled with the knowledge (proof as in examples like this and other resubs that come back one notch different with no suspected tampering) that CGCs grades for any particular book vary from day to day.

 

And, the question is: So, knowing what we know, why do we (so many of us) STILL base our buying on such an imperfect grading system? How much longer will be willing participants in what just may come to be known as that "CGC Era of Hysteria?" (or, "Hysterical Pricing?")

 

Like I say, we all know the pat answers... too many books to grade, human error, they only see the book in front of them, not the previous submission, etc etc ... but, if you just sit quietly and contemplate the situation we are in buying-wise, a sane person could only conclude our basis for todays prices (fixed to the CGC label) is, well, INSANE.... yet we all (nearly) continue to march to the beat of the drummer.

 

One more thing.... reading someone else state this tends to make others defensive and explain away WHY things are fine etc. So try to just let it come to you on its own, trying to understand, e.g. why your old 9.0 is now a 9.2 and you didnt do anything to it in between gradings, but, suddenly the market values it twice as much... Our house (of cards?) sure seems to be built on a foundation of sand, doesnt it?

[awe4one]

Well said Aman...

 

Jim

[Foolkiller]

mm... not really because we are able to point out the examples where there are grading changes, but how many books are resubbed with no change, or never resubbed at all. Maybe the first grade was the mistake... who's to say the higher grade isn't correct and it was undergraded the first time.

 

If you look at a book in the slab, then look at the label and say, well, even if the whole CGC market goes to hell tomorrow, I will still feel confident that I agree with the grade. Am I willing to pay this amount for this book. If the answer is yes, market realities or no, we are willing to pay. Sure, it seems like values have wildly inflated on some books -- but those aren't the books I own. When you talk of the market valuation for books being a house of cards construct, I'm inclined to agree on some of them... but on others, I think that all CGC has done to raise the values is more confidence that you are getting someone to certify the grade is (x) and it doesn't have resto...

 

the market is essentially valuing what someone else believes the book is worth -- it is a number that we are pinning our values to, but what's going to make it collapse? Lessened confidence in CGC grading? I don't see people feeling less confident in buying the purported grade anytime soon... because you can still look at the book and say, yes I believe that it is the grade stated or no it is not.

[Red Hook]

My understanding is Mr Ewert ranks high on the chart for pressing books that he buys or owns.

 

Which is exactly why I will never buy a book from Mr. Ewert due to, IMHO, his unethical sales practices.

 

Mark, isn't that a bit simplistic? The only difference between JE and many other dealers is that he's less discreet.

 

 

What prominent dealers and/or auction houses pass your ethical standards?

 

You know, for better or worse Marnin Rosenberg is making an attempt, to distinguish the books on his site that he feels have been pressed and those that have not. I think it's a step in the right direction. I've spoken to him often, and I am very impressed with his sincerity regarding his "mission". His motivations? I'm not privy to them, as I am not privy to Ewerts or Borocks or anyone elses.

 

I've also told Marnin that I don't agree with some of the personal attacks he's launched at CGC in the past, which I believe arose out of frustration on his part, and I think he's appreciated my honesty. I think his new site launch at collectorsassemble has been ignored, partly because of his stated concerns about CGC. I can understand why CGC doesn't give him the red carpet treatment. But I think the boards should offer a big tent approach, as long as the attacks aren't personal. I would love to see Marnin able to post on the boards again, as long as he abided by the rules. There should be room for philosophical differences.

 

Marnin loves these books. That is obvious to me, for instance, when I listen to him talk about his White Mountain books. It's certainly not a sales pitch, because he knows damn well I can't afford them!

 

The practice of undisclosed pressing is not going to disappear overnight, but I believe there is a groundswell of awareness on the rise. I am a supporter of CGC on many issues.....I think they've been their own worst enemy from a PR standpoint, at least lately. I believe in the policy of transparency. You want to claim the moral high ground that CGC took from the start.....well, you better walk the talk. Haven't seen enough walking lately.

 

Red

[Aman619]

You want to claim the moral high ground that CGC took from the start.....well, you better walk the talk. Haven't seen enough walking lately.

 

Red

 

'Nuff said, big brutha!

[nik]

If this is indeed the same book, all I can say is my faith in CGC is starting to shrink

[Aman619]

hmmm... not really because we are able to point out the examples where there are grading changes, but how many books are resubbed with no change, or never resubbed at all. Maybe the first grade was the mistake... who's to say the higher grade isn't correct and it was undergraded the first time.

 

If you look at a book in the slab, then look at the label and say, well, even if the whole CGC market goes to hell tomorrow, I will still feel confident that I agree with the grade. Am I willing to pay this amount for this book. If the answer is yes, market realities or no, we are willing to pay. Sure, it seems like values have wildly inflated on some books -- but those aren't the books I own. When you talk of the market valuation for books being a house of cards construct, I'm inclined to agree on some of them... but on others, I think that all CGC has done to raise the values is more confidence that you are getting someone to certify the grade is (x) and it doesn't have resto...

 

the market is essentially valuing what someone else believes the book is worth -- it is a number that we are pinning our values to, but what's going to make it collapse? Lessened confidence in CGC grading? I don't see people feeling less confident in buying the purported grade anytime soon... because you can still look at the book and say, yes I believe that it is the grade stated or no it is not.

 

 

In essence, CGC should never grade the same book at 2 different grades (assuming no pressing etc in between). I know they just give an "opinion" which leaves open th eprobability that they will grade the same book differently on a different day - -- but SHOULD that be "allowable"? Isnt that a giant step down and away from the ideal of rock solid stability of their grading that is the basis of the market values that follow the grade?

 

and, you are absolutely correct that if one buys the book, not the grade, CGCs future will not matter to the buyer. But in many cases above 9.0, we cannot see the differences clearly between books of adjacent grades. So our personal evaluation of a slabbed book is compromised --- and in the case of hidden defects - - worthless. Thats like buying a mint looking book in a mylar w/o looking the back until you get home.

 

The problems related to reliance on CGCs label increase as you go up the grading scale, as the multiples increase. But, as you also say, these arent the books you own, so your comments are true as far as they go.. Theres a heck of a lot more at stake in the HGs and thats where the shakiness of the system lays...

[rjpb]

Our house (of cards?) sure seems to be built on a foundation of sand, doesnt it?

 

I think the foundation is relatively sound - it's a the top end - where the high dollars for high-grades live that the risk lies. Despite some well-publicised mistakes, a CGC label is still a more reliable indicator of restoration than a dealer's "say so", and "high grade" will continue to garner a significant premium over mid-grade, and some collectors will continue to trust CGC more than their own eyes ( especially when their own eyes are looking at a scan not the actual book). What is likely to happen is that a .2 bump in grade may cease being an excuse to double the price, especially if the book still falls short of being the ever desirable "highest graded". The comic back issue market has survived all manner of books stagnating and even dropping in price, and while buying super-high grades of proven books has long been an innoculation against this sort of flucuation - it is not a guarantee of immunity. I predict no crash, but I would not be surprised at a market "correction" regarding many high grade books.

[nearmint]

I think everyone is making good points in this thread, but I just can't expect CGC to grade a book exactly the same, months or years apart. I have to factor in the human element, and the fact that our ideas of grading are constantly evolving.

[Red Hook]

So should we discount all slabs with old labels as having potentially outdated grades? I don't like the sound of that.......

 

Look, we're not talking 30 years here. CGC is a bit over 5 years old. They haven't exactly had a parade of graders march through their offices in that time. People are paying for the most accurate grading possible and the most consistant. That's what the whole shebang is built on. I do expect CGC to consistantly be within a grade at most anytime a book is re-subbed without any kind of "enhancement". I'm still disturbed by the Pacific Coast Avengers 16 that went from a 9.2 to a 9.6, with the mention of it's missing staple excised from the label and the online remarks.

 

When another book gets better......

 

I mean, we're talking about a big swing in the money involved and the value jumpup.

[nearmint]

So should we discount all slabs with old labels as having potentially outdated grades? I don't like the sound of that.......

 

Actually, it's just the opposite. Most collectors agree that CGC was more strict when they first opened their doors. I'd be inclined to bid higher on an old label, although you have to counter that with the greater opportunity for SCS to be present with a book that's been slabbed longer.

 

I don't want grading to be a stagnant process. If that were the case, we'd still be grading books good-fine-mint. Like anything else, it's an evolving process.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I think everyone is making good points in this thread, but I just can't expect CGC to grade a book exactly the same, months or years apart. I have to factor in the human element, and the fact that our ideas of grading are constantly evolving.

 

I agree entirely.

 

Which fully supports aman's argument that the label is not the be-all and end-all. And that the market is, quite frankly, insane to place so much financial importance on that one point difference.

 

Bit by bit, so much of what CGC was sold on has now been undermined...

 

'You know what you're getting...'

 

Well, you do if you can correctly identify the time period the book was graded, and whether it was a 'strict' period or a 'lax' period. Oh, and you need to know what mood the graders were in on that particular day.

 

'Ensure that the book isn't restored...'

 

Well, apart from pressing, which CGC can't 100% of the time detect and so they'll attempt to convince the market that it isn't actually resto in the first place.

 

'Be secure when purchasing via mail order and through eBay...

 

Well, yes, but now we're being told to make sure you examine the book first to ensure you're happy with the grade (see above).

 

'Impartial assessments and total transparency...'

 

Well, apart from them knowing what Chris is pressing, but not telling their customers. Oh, and working to a grading structure that they won't divulge, and that changes frequently (see point 1.). Oh, and them seeing the same pedigree copy come through their hands, looking so much better than the first time they graded it, but not letting anyone know.

 

Now, we haven't made a return to 'the bad old days' quite yet, but much more of this nonsense and those slabbed books we're all sitting on won't be worth one red cent more than one of Danny-Boy's Frankenstein jobs...

[Flaming_Telepath]

I don't want grading to be a stagnant process. If that were the case, we'd still be grading books good-fine-mint. Like anything else, it's an evolving process.

 

Well, all I can say then is I pity the poor suckers who are dropping their retirement funds into high end items right now.

 

'Cause come the next stage of 'evolution', they might not like the consequences of being left behind....

[sterlingcomics]

I think CGC has gone through cycles of how tough they are on books.

 

Absolutely. I've personally seen this variance during my multi-hundred book submission binge over the past two years. I'm not talking huge variances (usually one variant in grade and PQ), but enough to make me wonder. Hey, I understand they are human and grading is subjective.

 

It's been so long since I've submitted I'm going to have to send in "feeler" books to see how they feel today.

[sterlingcomics]

I mean, we're talking about a big swing in the money involved and the value jumpup.

 

As customers wise up and get more educated, I suggest that these insane multiples will start coming right on down. I'm seeing it now with 9.4 books--how much longer do we wait before it affects the 9.6 and 9.8 books?

 

What I read into this is that customers will send in fewer books to get graded, as the financial incentive will decrease. Hey, TAT may improve

[Red Hook]

Well, I think that if CGC's grading team took part in our grading contests we'd get a real feel for how they were grading that month......

[Wally's Comics]

I think CGC has gone through cycles of how tough they are on books.

 

Absolutely. I'm personally seen this variance during my multi-hundred book submission binge over the past two years. It's been so long since I've submitted I'm going to have to send in "feeler" books to see how they feel today.

 

Pretty soon, there with be an on-line service dedicated to that.

 

It will have a graph of when and when not to soley based on the "feeler factor".