What to do when you receive a CGC 9.8 really isn't a 9.8? 1 1

[Hollywood1892]

4 minutes ago, kav said:

Then you know nothing.

I know a few things...I think....actually come to think of it....I know very little....

[kav]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

[Hollywood1892]

2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Again...the value of the books is utterly and completely irrelevant to the grading process. Wanna know how I know that?

In June of 2009, the very first CGC 9.6 copy of Green Lantern #76 offered for public sale sold for $30,500. There was much discussion over it here, with many people being absolutely convinced that the book did not exist as a 9.8. The price was a record, smashing the 9.4 prices to smithereens. 

After that, however, a minor flood of 9.6s came out of the woodwork, so that now, 10 years later, there are now 21 copies in 9.6 on the census...and TWO 9.8s, one of which sold for just a little more than the 9.6 had several years earlier. If you offered $15,000 right now...half what it sold for 10 years ago...I imagine you would not have a problem procuring one.

Was the person who paid $30,500 for the "sole" 9.6 upset? Maybe. Maybe not. It was all that was available at the time. Nobody knows what else might be out there. But the truth is, this has happened thousands of times since the advent of CGC, where additional copies have resulted in much lower prices. That's the nature of the business. Can someone go to CGC and complain "hey! I paid $X for this, and now it's only worth 1/3 (or 1/4 or 1/10 or...)! I'm angry!" 

CGC gives that person a blank stare and says "...so? What's your point?" And that is the correct response. Saying "people will be mad that there are more 9.9s!" is a red herring, and has no importance in the discussion of whether or not CGC artificially holds back the highest grades.

 

Yes

Your right

That's the nature of collecting

But I'd be damn upset if I paid 30k for something that could be sold for half now. Or at least deeply saddened.

But there is collectors and than there is people trying to profit. I imagine he must realize the ceiling for a book like that couldn't be much higher,but than you have a 9.8 of tmnt 1 and look for what that sold for,and where is the ceiling on that 

ASM 300 might be the most graded comic there is and it still increases in value,though I imagine the ceiling on it isnt too far off.

[RockMyAmadeus]

36 minutes ago, newshane said:

I don't think it's "artificial" or corrupt, although it could be.

I don't think it's corrupt. As I've said, in many places at many times on this board, the fact that CGC artificially holds back the 9.9 and 10 grades is almost certainly a holdover from their very early days...handing out "too many" 9.9s and 10s would have made them look unprofessional, so...they just didn't. Nothing nefarious, nothing even remotely "corrupt" about it...which is why the "dichotomy" presented above isn't...they just decided to be much, much tougher than they ought to have been, and the census....20 years on...shows it. It's a decision they made early on that has reverberated down to the present day.

The reason it's not corrupt is because grading is subjective. CGC can reasonably claim, with any single book, that it doesn't meet THEIR criteria for 9.9. And, for any single book, they're perfectly correct. It's when you look at the AGGREGATE that the discrepancy appears: a mere 1 9.9 for every HUNDRED 9.8s.

And...the market supports this idea. Look at some of the 2002-2005 prices for 9.9s of almost anything...they're not much compared to what they would sell for now...and 9.8s weren't that much cheaper. That's because the market for CGC books then didn't realize that 9.9s would be prohibitively rarely given out. 9.9s today are far, far, far more "valuable" than they have a right to be, especially for post 1990 books, when everyone was saving perfect books out of the cases...and that's because of their artificial rarity in the market. 

BUT...here's the kicker: grading is a COLLABORATIVE effort. CGC neither wants nor needs the market to just "take their word for it." The best, most properly graded books are a collaboration: that is, the seller, the buyer, AND CGC all agree on what the grade is. That is the only way third party grading...of any kind...can work.

[kav]

You still have to answer the question of HOW do they decide to go ahead and give a book a 9.9 out of all the 9.9s they give 9.8s to-Dice?  what?  and do they graders get together and decide it because they would have to.

[newshane]

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

9.9s today are far, far, far more "valuable" than they have a right to be, especially for post 1990 books, when everyone was saving perfect books out of the cases...and that's because of their artificial rarity in the market. 

 

Truth. Oh man....

[newshane]

11 minutes ago, Hollywood1892 said:

But I'd be damn upset if I paid 30k for something that could be sold for half now.

This might not be the right hobby for you then.  

[newshane]

29 minutes ago, kav said:

so you're saying if you've owned 9.9s that makes you a top notch grader and better than anyone CGC has to offer?  And if you havent owned 9.9s that means you know nothing-absolutely nothing about grading and whether or not a company like CGC would artificially keep books from their rightful grade?

I am saying you have to HOLD THE BOOK IN YOUR HAND to determine the differences between 9.8s, 9.9s, and 10s. It is not something you can glean from a scan. It's easy enough to understand the definition of a 9.9. I think you get that. But your assertion that you don't have to actually see one to know one does not apply in this instance. You can distract with black holes and ancient's praising mastodons all you want. But it doesn't negate the fact that the differences are so freakin' minute, that you really do, honest-to-Thor have to make that determination by actually looking at the book...and looking VERY freakin' carefully. 

As for what's going on with the CGC, I can't answer for them, so why should I try? But EMPIRICAL observation and statistics tell that this doesn't add up. I thought it was given knowledge that there should be more 9.9s out there. 

 

[Hollywood1892]

6 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I don't think it's corrupt. As I've said, in many places at many times on this board, the fact that CGC artificially holds back the 9.9 and 10 grades is almost certainly a holdover from their very early days...handing out "too many" 9.9s and 10s would have made them look unprofessional, so...they just didn't. Nothing nefarious, nothing even remotely "corrupt" about it...which is why the "dichotomy" presented above isn't...they just decided to be much, much tougher than they ought to have been, and the census....20 years on...shows it. It's a decision they made early on that has reverberated down to the present day.

 

I'm not saying in any way that CGC is corrupt,but look at your wording.

What CGC is essentially saying is

"We no longer hand out 9.9s as much as we used to because we used to hand out too many when we first started"

So what does that mean? Your passing on 9.9s because you gave out too many in your early days? And your the subjective leader in a multi billion dollar hobby that your essentially saying "we have no idea what the value of our grading books are"

if you had a dealer selling a raw copy of tmnt 1 that he is saying is a 9.8 but nobody in their right mind would pay 90k for it if CGC didnt come along and give their "slab of approval"

[newshane]

10 minutes ago, kav said:

You still have to answer the question of HOW do they decide to go ahead and give a book a 9.9 out of all the 9.9s they give 9.8s to-Dice?  what?  and do they graders get together and decide it because they would have to.

I'm sure they go by their private standards. I'm just arguing that those standards need an adjustment in regard to what's going on with the top tier grade levels. It's wildly inconsistent. 

[newshane]

9 minutes ago, newshane said:

This might not be the right hobby for you then.  

I really hope you don't collect modern variants by the way.  

[kav]

Just now, newshane said:

I am saying you have to HOLD THE BOOK IN YOUR HAND to determine the differences between 9.8s, 9.9s, and 10s. It is not something you can glean from a scan. It's easy enough to understand the definition of a 9.9. I think you get that. But your assertion that you don't have to actually see one to know one does not apply in this instance. You can distract with black holes and ancient's praising mastodons all you want. But it doesn't negate the fact that the differences are so freakin' minute, that you really do, honest-to-Thor have to make that determination by actually looking at the book...and looking VERY freakin' carefully. 

As for what's going on with the CGC, I can't answer for them, so why should I try? But EMPIRICAL observation and statistics tell that this doesn't add up. I thought it was given knowledge that there should be more 9.9s out there. 

 

I think maybe you're misunderstanding the points I'm making.   I never said you could tell, from a scan, a 9.8 from a 9.9.  I've never even said that I myself can do that if I have the books in hand.  The points I am making, well I've said them 3 or 4 times now, and that wasnt it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

9 minutes ago, newshane said:

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

9.9s today are far, far, far more "valuable" than they have a right to be, especially for post 1990 books, when everyone was saving perfect books out of the cases...and that's because of their artificial rarity in the market. 

 

Truth. Oh man....

People back in 2005 just genuinely assumed that, at about the same proportional rate that new 9.8s were showing up, that new 9.9s would, too. For roughly every 10-20 new 9.8s, a single 9.9 would show up. That proved to be not even remotely true....but it's NOT because there weren't "9.9 quality" copies out there.

[RockMyAmadeus]

4 minutes ago, Hollywood1892 said:

"We no longer hand out 9.9s as much as we used to because we used to hand out too many when we first started"

That's not at all what I said. You've misread my statement completely. Not trying to offend you...just pointing out that you have completely misread what I said.

[newshane]

Just now, RockMyAmadeus said:

People back in 2005 just genuinely assumed that, at about the same proportional rate that new 9.8s were showing up, that new 9.9s would, too. For roughly every 10-20 new 9.8s, a single 9.9 would show up. That proved to be not even remotely true....but it's NOT because there weren't "9.9 quality" copies out there.

My Spawn collection was around 400 graded slabs at its peak - I think I had 14 9.9s. 

I probably had at least 30 9.8s that were every bit as good, if not better, than the 9.9s. 

But what do I know? The collection was lovingly scrutinized inside and out for a good 5 years. 

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, newshane said:

I'm sure they go by their private standards. I'm just arguing that those standards need an adjustment in regard to what's going on with the top tier grade levels. It's wildly inconsistent. 

Yup. There are plenty of books that are objectively better condition in 9.8 slabs than the same book in 9.9 slabs. 

[Hollywood1892]

4 minutes ago, newshane said:

I really hope you don't collect modern variants by the way.  

I have no modern variants

This is pretty much my entire slabbed collection

Personally I collect mostly moderns and I dont really like buying under a 9.8

[Hollywood1892]

3 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's not at all what I said. You've misread my statement completely. Not trying to offend you...just pointing out that you have completely misread what I said.

I have so much respect for you that if we had an uncivilized argument,I would look internally for what the problem was,never too you

[RockMyAmadeus]

And...if someone doesn't know what the phrase "totally unbroken front to back, a perfect semi-circle" means, for example...they're probably not going to understand the intricacies of the nosebleed grades.

[kav]

1 minute ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And...if someone doesn't know what the phrase "totally unbroken front to back, a perfect semi-circle" means, for example...they're probably not going to understand the intricacies of the nosebleed grades.

For the points I have been making, the intricacies of the nosebleed grades are completely irrelevant.