eBay Buyer Fraud via Pay Pal to Circumvent eBay - How to handle a Scam Artist? 0

[Ride the Tiger]

It really sucks that you have to give in to these scammers instead of holding your ground. Why should the bully get their way? It seems that if you let these people get away with stuff like this they are just gonna keep doing it to other people. Don't know about the others here but I've had it. You read about this stuff happening all the time and it never ends. It's making me wanna close my Ebay account. 

[Poka]

@Stat Monsters Sorry to learn what you are going through. I predict that you will lose (@kav - I got it right this time ) this case. If buyer made a paypal claim you would have a fairly good chance of winning, as paypal is actually reasonable to deal with. However, given buyer has made a charge back claim it all lies with the credit card issuer. The credit issuer will 99% of times side with the buyer, as that is their client. As a seller, you do not matter to them. Unfortunately, you don't have paypal seller protection either in this case.

Hope I am wrong. But if you loose, please make sure that the community knows about the buyer. There are also a few facebook groups which may be good, especially if buyer is also active buyer on facebook

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Poka
lose not loose :)

[Beige]

1 hour ago, Poka said:

@Stat Monsters Sorry to learn what you are going through. I predict that you will lose (@kav - I got it right this time ) this case. If buyer made a paypal claim you would have a fairly good chance of winning, as paypal is actually reasonable to deal with. However, given buyer has made a charge back claim it all lies with the credit card issuer. The credit issuer will 99% of times side with the buyer, as that is their client. As a seller, you do not matter to them. Unfortunately, you don't have paypal seller protection either in this case.

Hope I am wrong. But if you loose, please make sure that the community knows about the buyer. There are also a few facebook groups which may be good, especially if buyer is also active buyer on facebook

 

How on earth do you jump to that conclusion?

He is still within the 180 day period to contest the charge-back - the claim was made VIA paypal for the charge-back.

He has a very very strong chance of winning this.

The claimant has offered no proof and at one point offered to drop the issue completely.

He just needs the right paypal rep, and needs to keep calling until he finds one.

Good luck @Stat Monsters

[Poka]

3 hours ago, Beige said:

How on earth do you jump to that conclusion?

He is still within the 180 day period to contest the charge-back - the claim was made VIA paypal for the charge-back.

He has a very very strong chance of winning this.

The claimant has offered no proof and at one point offered to drop the issue completely.

He just needs the right paypal rep, and needs to keep calling until he finds one.

Good luck @Stat Monsters

Not sure if you have any experience with chargebacks. There is a difference between a buyer filing a claim with paypal and making a chargeback. If buyer has made a chargeback claim then Paypal's only role is to provide information to the credit card issuing bank who will then make the decision, ie it is NOT paypal's decision.

[Buzzetta]

3 hours ago, Beige said:

How on earth do you jump to that conclusion?

He is still within the 180 day period to contest the charge-back - the claim was made VIA paypal for the charge-back.

He has a very very strong chance of winning this.

The claimant has offered no proof and at one point offered to drop the issue completely.

He just needs the right paypal rep, and needs to keep calling until he finds one.

Good luck @Stat Monsters

Agreed.  It's always worth the phone call. 

[Buzzetta]

13 minutes ago, Poka said:

Not sure if you have any experience with chargebacks. There is a difference between a buyer filing a claim with paypal and making a chargeback. If buyer has made a chargeback claim then Paypal's only role is to provide information to the credit card issuing bank who will then make the decision, ie it is NOT paypal's decision.

Not particularly true. 

This is the last chargeback that was filed against me back in September of 2016.   Buyer filed a chargeback that someone hacked their eBay address and bought an item to be shipped to a fraudulent address. It went through PayPal.  While I sympathize with the buyer if their story is true there is no reason I should be penalized so I called, stated my claims in the matter.  I do not know if she received her money back.  All I know is that PayPal had my back and I kept the money from the sale.   You would also be surprised the power that PayPal has over eBay.   eBay handles the sale.  PayPal handles the money.  

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Buzzetta

[Poka]

4 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

Not particularly true. 

This is the last chargeback that was filed against me back in September of 2016.   Buyer filed a chargeback that someone hacked their eBay address and bought an item to be shipped to a fraudulent address. It went through PayPal.  While I sympathize with the buyer if their story is true there is no reason I should be penalized so I called, stated my claims in the matter.  I do not know if she received her money back.  All I know is that PayPal had my back and I kept the money from the sale.   You would also be surprised the power that PayPal has over eBay.   eBay handles the sale.  PayPal handles the money.  

 

You case was handed by Paypal seller protection, which is different from the above case which is filed as item not as described which is not protected by paypal

[Poka]

@Stat Monsters I did forget to add one thing. If you disagree with the facts upon which the buyer has filed a charge back, ie item not as described but he refuses to return the item, then your best chance is to file a police report against the buyer for mail fraud. The police report you submit to paypal. I have a paypal business account which protects against fraud (turning an item not as described into a fraud). This is how I have got my money back from paypal where a buyer filed a charge back against me and card issuer institution sided with the buyer.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Poka
spelling

[Buzzetta]

1 minute ago, Poka said:

You case was handed by Paypal seller protection, which is different from the above case which is filed as item not as described which is not protected by paypal

Gotta get the right PayPal person.  They do not like scammers these days. 

Item not as described means absolutely nothing in a case like the OP is talking about.   Because at the end of the day, if the CSR smells something fishy they close it out on the seller's behalf.  Now if the buyer had filed the claim within a more reasonable amount of time, they would most likely win.  This chargeback was filed three months after the fact. 

 

Fight it. Fight it. Fight it some more. There is nothing to lose here and EVERYTHING to gain. 

 

[Buzzetta]

1 minute ago, Poka said:

@Stat Monsters I did forget to add one thing. If you disagree with the facts upon which the buyer has filed a charge back, ie item not as described but he refuses to return the item, then your best change is to file a police report against the buyer for mail fraud. The police report you submit to paypal. I have a paypal business account which protects against fraud (turning an item not as described into a fraud). This is how I have got my money back from paypal where a buyer filed a charge back against me and card issuer institution sided with the buyer.

This is a very good point though. 

 

[Poka]

15 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

Gotta get the right PayPal person.  They do not like scammers these days. 

Item not as described means absolutely nothing in a case like the OP is talking about.   Because at the end of the day, if the CSR smells something fishy they close it out on the seller's behalf.  Now if the buyer had filed the claim within a more reasonable amount of time, they would most likely win.  This chargeback was filed three months after the fact. 

 

Fight it. Fight it. Fight it some more. There is nothing to lose here and EVERYTHING to gain. 

 

If buyer opens a paypal claim - absolute agree.

If buyer raised a chargeback with the credit card issuing institution - paypal has no decision. They merely submit the information you provide them with the credit card issuing institution who is the party who makes the decision. If the charge back claim is for an item not as describe - paypal will not protect you when (not if) you lose the case. Only chance you have is to demonstrate it is a fraud. Paypal will take a police filing seriously

Edited September 14, 2019 by Poka
lose vs loose sigh

[Buzzetta]

8 minutes ago, Poka said:

If buyer opens a paypal claim - absolute agree.

If buyer raised a chargeback with the credit card issuing institution - paypal has no decision. They merely submit the information you provide them with the credit card issuing institution who is the party who makes the decision. If the charge back claim is for an item not as describe - paypal will not protect you when (not if) you loose the case. Only chance you have is to demonstate it is a fraud. Paypal will take a police filing seriously

I have gotten four chargebacks in the last 20 years of doing this for fun. It's not about the money I actually like doing this and everything about it is fun to me.

I don't know what to tell you.  I disagree by personal experience.  Now maybe the rules or laws have changed since then.

• One case was the one I described above.  I concede that you are correct and it is apples and oranges as "item not described" is different from "fraudulent use." 
• Another case I lost.  I lose as well.  Not going to celebrate the victories on the boards without admitting to losses. 
• A third case I won.  Yes, it is possible to win a case of which you described. Maybe the buyer has done it too many times. I have no idea as they do not tell you specifics when you win. 
• A fourth case was closed because the buyer apologized for what he did and initiated the closure himself.  

[Stat Monsters]

On 9/12/2019 at 4:35 AM, boatfund said:

https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/contact-us

hit the contact us button and phone number and passcode pulls up  - you may get transferred several times - be clear, you have a buyer committing fraud that is trying to get a refund from you - the ebay item no longer pulls up due to the time frame.

"Call PayPal Customer Service and enter this one-time passcode when prompted.

The code below takes you directly to the experts you need."

like I said they may transfer you several times.

fyi - you have to go through multiple pages on the paypal website (starting with main home page) to get a phone number and ignore the pop-ups to chat about your problem through messaging - it is hard to find the phone number.   They do seem to prefer you using online system, however speaking with a rep works out best for me.

Thanks!  It's been five days so far since my replay to the complaint/issue, so I'm not sure if I'm support to wait for the Buyer to reply, for Pay Pal to make a judgement or be proactive and call Pay Pal now to circumvent waiting.  

I appreciate your advice and assistance.  I feel the same way where speaking to a rep is way better than using emails or chats.

[Stat Monsters]

7 hours ago, Poka said:

@Stat Monsters I did forget to add one thing. If you disagree with the facts upon which the buyer has filed a charge back, ie item not as described but he refuses to return the item, then your best chance is to file a police report against the buyer for mail fraud. The police report you submit to paypal. I have a paypal business account which protects against fraud (turning an item not as described into a fraud). This is how I have got my money back from paypal where a buyer filed a charge back against me and card issuer institution sided with the buyer.

Yes!  Thanks!  I was going to file either a police report (do I do that with their local police or mine?) or via the USPS for attempted mail fraud.  In theory it's a pretty clear case that there is some level of fraud occurring even if just on the fact that the buyer is claiming the full amount on a partially damaged order and also has not returned the merchandise yet is claiming for a full refund and keeping both items.  I think their communication is where they committed legal suicide by incriminating themselves with their behavior as icing on that cake to substantiate a good defense or take away their credibility too. 

[kav]

13 hours ago, Poka said:

I predict that you will lose

[kav]

13 hours ago, Poka said:

But if you loose

[Stat Monsters]

Update:  Thanks to kind board members who assisted, I was able to get Pay Pal's C/S # of 1-888-221-1161 (and did use a code to expedite my call that I got by logging into my account) and an email of chargeback@paypal.com to send additional substantiation.

The Pay Pal agent without committing to anything basically said it sounds like Buyer Mail Fraud and that it's an odd if not suspicious action for a buyer to wait almost exactly the time eBay's 90 day window expires (for which if he had gone through eBay with a dispute, the buyer knew he would lose) and using his Credit Card company as a chargeback to dispute the charge.  Pay Pal is actually now on the Seller's defense side since it's their job to work with the Buyer's credit card company.

Pay Pal does not have access to all of the information, so it's easy to email them substantiation such as communication messages, delivery confirmation receipts and transaction reports of what the items were/are.  

Pay Pal said at this point, the buyer makes their dispute, the seller replies, Pay Pal takes that to the credit card company and it can take 30+ days to get a response (not necessarily an action or decision) for which I assume either party can dispute if not in their favor as a last attempt before the case is closed and judgement is made.  The seller and buyer need not communicate and in fact supposedly does not even see each others notes to Pay Pal regarding the filing.

So, at this point they say it's a waiting game.  They also say, YES, if Mail Fraud is suspected, then that could be brought up and pursued, probably via Pay Pal and their (buyer's) Credit Card company or involving the local police or USPS.  If the buyer decides to be vengeful and send back the items purposefully damaged or an empty box, that further cements their fate as criminals conducting mail fraud, so it's recommended to take photos or videos of opening any returned merchandise.  If the buyer ends up keeping the merchandise and getting their refund, it's said one can argue that if they try to sell it, it's considered stolen merchandise, and yet another claim can be made at that level.

It's a whole lot of work and runaround for a small amount of money, but it's the principle of what's right and wrong, not just whatever is easy to make a problem go away and reward evil criminals who then may victimize someone else.

[Beige]

 In September, over 3 months after the eBay transaction, the Buyer files a complaint claim with their credit card company through Pay Pal for their money back, as a chargeback claiming "item not as described" but claiming the full amount paid for the 2 items and shipping in total.

 

@Stat Monsters   can you clarify exactly the process here - who notified you of the charge back request and where was the 'item not as described' filed.

 

I'm reading this currently as CC has refunded buyer. Paypal is considering refunding CC.Buyer then has $ and items. Is that correct?

 

If so, call Paypal. I have NEVER heard of a single instance where paypal will let a buyer keep $ and merchandise without sellers express permission. A return of goods has always been part of the process. I am overseas though, so I concede that your system may differ slightly and Poka is correct.

I'd be amazed though regardless if paypal did not insist on return of goods (at your expense no doubt) before making the CC whole.

[Beige]

cross-over posts!

So the CC has not yet been refunded?

Sweet - you got this buddy!

Paypal will side with you - I had the exact same thing happen to me - but only after 25 days.Ebay sided with buyer, paypal with me.

Paypal trumps ebay.

The end.

[Stat Monsters]

21 hours ago, Beige said:

cross-over posts!

So the CC has not yet been refunded?

Sweet - you got this buddy!

Paypal will side with you - I had the exact same thing happen to me - but only after 25 days.Ebay sided with buyer, paypal with me.

Paypal trumps ebay.

The end.

Thanks!  Yes, there has been no official refund, but my Pay Pal balance has frozen assets I can't access due to the dispute.

eBay has a customer service phone number that, if you speak with someone (and everytime, I believe their call center has been outsourced to the Philippines) and explain your situation, they'll generally side with a seller to take off an undeserved neutral or negative feedback or even if a buyer is able to scam the system, provide seller protection to make things financially right.  However, if you just leave it to the automated world of eBay's C/S via messages, replying to messages and leaving notes, eBay will usually it seems, not read them and just side with the buyer. 

I had one person essentially tell me they thought they paid too much for the item (buyer's remorse) and told me they were going to return the item back for a refund and if I did not agree, they'd either damage it and send it back claiming it was damaged or send back an empty parcel and keep the item to get their refund, basically extorting with threats.  I cited those messages the person wrote, and they did so using eBay's messenger system, which eBay can verify themselves, so left it to logic and chance, but eBay clearly did not read the person's messages nor mine and allowed that person to get their refund and the person indeed did send back the item (albeit not horribly damaged) for their proof of return for the refund.  Had I simply called eBay, spoken with a real person, they would have reviewed that message and denied the buyer's claim instantly, but I was either ignorant or lazy to call and thought a written response was adequate, but it fell on deaf ears and blind eyes at eBay.   

So, I do encourage other sellers with issues, to speak with a live person to tell the full story and explain or defend accusations and the truth of the matter for favorable settlement. 

Although eBay usually protects the buyers because that's the illusion of the company being "for the people" the reality is, eBay makes their revenues only from the sellers who pay their listing fees, commissions and posts merchandise on eBay to make it an appealing marketplace site.  Without sellers, eBay would have no revenue.  Sure, they need buyers to come to buy to generate commissions, but unlike other auction houses that has 2-way (buyer's premium %'s and seller's consignment commission %'s) fees, eBay only collects from sellers, so they know they need to protect them as their golden gooses, especially the sellers who are not so casual listing infrequent and cheap merchandise, but are the power sellers who bring in predictable solid revenue.  That's probably why it's so hard to get a C/S phone number, and they let the masses go through their online message system, but the preferred sellers get a VIP type treatment I think.