How have label chasers affected the hobby

[sfilosa]

sfilosa,

 

I have to disagree. AT THE HIGH-END pressing does matter.

 

No one will pay 30K - 120K for a book and not wanna have some understanding of everything relevant which influences price.

 

Pressing is relevant because it can/ and potentially more so in the future undermine the value of a comic book.

 

Show me someone who spends 30K PLUS on a comic book and doesnt care about pressing,....

 

 

Let me make this quite clear.

 

MANY of the BIG COLLECTORS (who are still collecting) DON'T BELIEVE PRESSING IS RESTORATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[october]

No qualifyiing needed, assuming you're not a primate.

 

By the way, the primates group includes humans. Nice try though, dumasss.

[sfilosa]

 

Quote:

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You are dreaming if you think PRESSING is, or ever will be a serious issue to comic collectors. These boards do not represent the majority of buyers.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I don't know if you do it on purpose, or just act dumb, but you seem pretty dense at times.

 

This comment has NOTHING to do with opinion, but the FACT that rampant pressing will have a LONG-TERM effect on the CENSUS and, in some cases (late-Silver, Bronze), high supplies+pressing will virtually flood the market with NM or higher copies.

 

That kind of impact is something that will definitely affect collecting, as supply will only continue to increase and rampant pressing just makes it worse.

 

* Note this is where sfilosa chimes in with his "but pressing has been going long before CGC" straw-man...

 

I said a SERIOUS EFFECT.

 

1) You can not automatically take an 8.0 book and make it a 9.4. Can you take a 9.0 book that actually looks NM, but because of a few small non-color breaking creases make in CGC 9.4, yes.

 

2) Look at the CENSUS now. There are certain issues (i.e. 1968 Marvel relauches, Hulk #181, etc.) that still sell for high prices, even with high census numbers. Do you think a few more will make that big of a difference?

 

Oh, and when was the market suppose to crash (early 2004)? And this was before the whole PRESSING should be DISCLOSED, hit these boards.

[joe_collector]

By the way, the primates group includes humans. Nice try though, dumasss.

 

Well DUH! I guess I really struck a nerve if you've degenerated into the "definition police". How old are you, 3?

 

Primate is still a derogatory comment, regardless of its scientific meaning, given that most people associate "primate" with monkey and apes, rather than the zillion of so sub-groups that are tied in (and yes, greaseboy, before you get all riled up, "zillion" is an intentional exaggeration).

 

Many jokes and sayings are founded in misinformation, and I bet you're one of those geeks who would scream at me if I said "Play it again Sam", since the words were never uttered in the movie. Of course, most people know this, but it's become ingrained in our culture.

 

I bet if you wore a T-shirt with "I'm A Big Dumb Primate" on it, you'd have people laughing at you, right or wrong. Then again, I bet most people laugh at you anyway.

[october]

By the way, the primates group includes humans. Nice try though, dumasss.

 

Well DUH! I guess I really struck a nerve if you've degenerated into the "definition police". How old are you, 3?

 

Primate is still a derogatory comment, regardless of its scientific meaning, given that most people associate "primate" with monkey and apes, rather than the zillion of so sub-groups that are tied in (and yes, greaseboy, before you get all riled up, "zillion" is an intentional exaggeration).

 

Many jokes and sayings are founded in misinformation, and I bet you're one of those geeks who would scream at me if I said "Play it again Sam", since the words were never uttered in the movie. Of course, most people know this, but it's become ingrained in our culture.

 

I bet if you wore a T-shirt with "I'm A Big Dumb Primate" on it, you'd have people laughing at you, right or wrong. Then again, I bet most people laugh at you anyway.

 

Good one. It's always nice to run across a grown man who refuses to admit when he is wrong. Your reputation as a petulant, arrogant, welching, know it all is richly deserved. No point in arguing with the willfully obtuse, so I am out.

[joe_collector]

Yep, I definitely hit a nerve there.

 

I'd call you an hindividual_without_enough_empathy on your way out, but you'd write me an essay on how a human being differs from a physical anus.

[october]

I'd call you an hindividual_without_enough_empathy on your way out, but you'd write me an essay on how a human being differs from a physical anus.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

sfilosa,

 

I have to disagree. AT THE HIGH-END pressing does matter.

 

No one will pay 30K - 120K for a book and not wanna have some understanding of everything relevant which influences price.

 

Pressing is relevant because it can/ and potentially more so in the future undermine the value of a comic book.

 

Show me someone who spends 30K PLUS on a comic book and doesnt care about pressing,....

 

 

Let me make this quite clear.

 

MANY of the BIG COLLECTORS (who are still collecting) DON'T BELIEVE PRESSING IS RESTORATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Are you suggesting that...given the choice... these 'BIG COLLECTORS' would pay the same money for an pressed 9.8 as they would for an unpressed one? If not, then it really doesn't matter if they consider it resto or not. The book has been manipulated...plain & simple.

[krazykat-migration]

sfilosa,

 

I have to disagree. AT THE HIGH-END pressing does matter.

 

No one will pay 30K - 120K for a book and not wanna have some understanding of everything relevant which influences price.

 

Pressing is relevant because it can/ and potentially more so in the future undermine the value of a comic book.

 

Show me someone who spends 30K PLUS on a comic book and doesnt care about pressing,....

 

 

Let me make this quite clear.

 

MANY of the BIG COLLECTORS (who are still collecting) DON'T BELIEVE PRESSING IS RESTORATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Are you suggesting that...given the choice... these 'BIG COLLECTORS' would pay the same money for an pressed 9.8 as they would for an unpressed one? If not, then it really doesn't matter if they consider it resto or not. The book has been manipulated...plain & simple.

 

If I spend $$$$MEGA-BUCKS$$$$ on a book with the belief it was a difficult to obtain item and highly uniqe...you can be damn sure Id be pissed that someone can just 'PRESS' one into existence. I would think mighty hard about spending 90K on an ASM #1 in 9.6 if 7 or 8 jokers can 'Press' their 9.4's into 9.6's. It would dilute the value of my investment. Anyone who doesnt see this is a FOOL.

 

This is why I believe the HG comic market has 'capped out',..Pressing underrmines everything. Better off buying OA,..at least that way you know its truly unique.

[sfilosa]

Are you suggesting that...given the choice... these 'BIG COLLECTORS' would pay the same money for an pressed 9.8 as they would for an unpressed one? If not, then it really doesn't matter if they consider it resto or not. The book has been manipulated...plain & simple.

 

The BIG COLLECTORS want the BOOK. I'm not saying that they wouldn't rather have an unpressed copy, I'm saying it not a bid deal to them.

 

Steve Borock bought the MH More Fun #52 KNOWING it had restoration. He still paid the same price he thought he would have to pay, BEFORE he knew there was restoration. Simply put, HE REALLY WANTED THAT BOOK!!!!!!

 

And everyone needs to stop thinking that half the CGC 9.4 books can be pressed into 9.6's. If it was that easy, EVERY BIG DEALER would have all there 9.4's on the PRESS.

[krazykat-migration]

Are you suggesting that...given the choice... these 'BIG COLLECTORS' would pay the same money for an pressed 9.8 as they would for an unpressed one? If not, then it really doesn't matter if they consider it resto or not. The book has been manipulated...plain & simple.

 

The BIG COLLECTORS want the BOOK. I'm not saying that they wouldn't rather have an unpressed copy, I'm saying it not a bid deal to them.

 

Steve Borock bought the MH More Fun #52 KNOWING it had restoration. He still paid the same price he thought he would have to pay, BEFORE he knew there was restoration. Simply put, HE REALLY WANTED THAT BOOK!!!!!!

 

And everyone needs to stop thinking that half the CGC 9.4 books can be pressed into 9.6's. If it was that easy, EVERY BIG DEALER would have all there 9.4's on the PRESS.

 

If even ONE ASM #1 can be pressed from a 9.4 into a 9.6 thats one too many. My guess is probably more than that. And multiply that by AF#15's...FF #1's..

 

and all of a sudden,..something which was rare,..aint to rare anymore...and alotta people who paid real money for non-pressed books get the shaft.

[tth2]

Have fun with the hairshirt, who is apparently the only one who takes you diatribes seriously. There's a dubious honor if I ever saw one.

[tth2]

Good one. It's always nice to run across a grown man who refuses to admit when he is wrong. Your reputation as a petulant, arrogant, welching, know it all is richly deserved. No point in arguing with the willfully obtuse, so I am out.

[october]

Have fun with the hairshirt, who is apparently the only one who takes you diatribes seriously. There's a dubious honor if I ever saw one.

 

I borrowed the nickname you coined, hope you don't mind. It's so apropos.

[Red Hook]

 

The BIG COLLECTORS want the BOOK. I'm not saying that they wouldn't rather have an unpressed copy, I'm saying it not a big deal to them.

 

Steve, your posts here are setting even higher marks for inanity than you've previously established, and that's saying a lot. How you can make a blanket statement like the one above and those over your previous several posts, and expect anyone over the age of five to buy it for a second is incredible. I agree with Joe C. 100% on this one.

 

The extent of pressing is still being determined. I believe that as the wider range of collectors and the general public becomes aware....

 

1) that pressing even exists (we're past that phase on the boards already)

2) what it actually entails

3) how it artificially and fraudulently inflates prices realized

4) and who is doing it,

 

then a revolution of sorts will be in motion. In fact it's already in motion.

 

I'm not trying to convince you personally of anything, because you're part of the reason these guys have been able to get away with it so far.

 

Given a choice, between a pressed book and a non-pressed book at the same price, an informed collector will choose the later. Why do you think the auction for the Green River Daredevil #11 9.6 was pulled so fast two years ago and has never been offered for sale publicly since? Because pressed books, if identified as such, will garner lower prices than pressed books. Simple.

 

You make quite a number of claims about the "big collector" who doesn't care whether their books are pressed or not, and who is happy (no, overjoyed) to pay the same price. And I don't mean

 

Who is that?

 

How many pressed book do you have Steve? Which ones are they? You can't say, because you don't KNOW! And you obviously, don't WANT to know.

 

Did you pay the same price as a non-pressed book? Again, since you can't identify which books in your collection have been flattened, you can't answer.

 

Find me a couple of BSD collectors who will come out in public and say that they have purchased pressed books knowingly as unrestored books, and intend to keep them and not try to pass them off on slightly less bigger collectors further down the food chain like you. Or shunt them off via a Heritage auction.

 

You're not going to find them.

 

You see, they're all tangled up in a Catch 22. Because the don't want to face the possiblity of sellling them at a loss later on. Dealers won't admit to pressing books (themselves), or selling pressed books. CGCs new inhouse pressing business won't reveal its client list. Or what books it's pressing.

 

It's not about privacy, it's about complicency. It's about deniability.

 

It's a dirty practice. Public awareness is growing. Put the facts out there to a much wider audience than is here on the boards, and let the market decide. I'll live with the results.

 

Guys like you can't be helped at this point. Whatever your motivation is, ....fear, ignorance, invovlement, greed or simple blockheadedness....it doesn't matter. Keep your head in the sand.

I'd debate you more directly, but you don't even make cogent arguments. You're just chanting your mantra without backing it up with any facts. It's easy to ignore.

 

This issue is so very much alive and still gathering steam....and evolving as we speak, that I am quite content to leave you and other pressing adherents to your fate. The only reason that I'm even responding to you directly is to make sure that any newcomers to the board understand that undisclosed pressing is fraud, that many big dealers and auction houses are involved and that reforms to the business will arrive eventually, whether voluntarily adopted or forced upon it.

 

Red

[krazykat-migration]

 

The BIG COLLECTORS want the BOOK. I'm not saying that they wouldn't rather have an unpressed copy, I'm saying it not a big deal to them.

 

Steve, your posts here are setting even higher marks for inanity than you've previously established, and that's saying a lot. How you can make a blanket statement like the one above and those over your previous several posts, and expect anyone over the age of five to buy it for a second is incredible. I agree with Joe C. 100% on this one.

 

The extent of pressing is still being determined. I believe that as the wider range of collectors and the general public becomes aware....

 

1) that pressing even exists (we're past that phase on the boards already)

2) what it actually entails

3) how it artificially and fraudulently inflates prices realized

4) and who is doing it,

 

then a revolution of sorts will be in motion. In fact it's already in motion.

 

I'm not trying to convince you personally of anything, because you're part of the reason these guys have been able to get away with it so far.

 

Given a choice, between a pressed book and a non-pressed book at the same price, an informed collector will choose the later. Why do you think the auction for the Green River Daredevil #11 9.6 was pulled so fast two years ago and has never been offered for sale publicly since? Because pressed books, if identified as such, will garner lower prices than pressed books. Simple.

 

You make quite a number of claims about the "big collector" who doesn't care whether their books are pressed or not, and who is happy (no, overjoyed) to pay the same price. And I don't mean

 

Who is that?

 

How many pressed book do you have Steve? Which ones are they? You can't say, because you don't KNOW! And you obviously, don't WANT to know.

 

Did you pay the same price as a non-pressed book? Again, since you can't identify which books in your collection have been flattened, you can't answer.

 

Find me a couple of BSD collectors who will come out in public and say that they have purchased pressed books knowingly as unrestored books, and intend to keep them and not try to pass them off on slightly less bigger collectors further down the food chain like you. Or shunt them off via a Heritage auction.

 

You're not going to find them.

 

You see, they're all tangled up in a Catch 22. Because the don't want to face the possiblity of sellling them at a loss later on. Dealers won't admit to pressing books (themselves), or selling pressed books. CGCs new inhouse pressing business won't reveal its client list. Or what books it's pressing.

 

It's not about privacy, it's about complicency. It's about deniability.

 

It's a dirty practice. Public awareness is growing. Put the facts out there to a much wider audience than is here on the boards, and let the market decide. I'll live with the results.

 

Guys like you can't be helped at this point. Whatever your motivation is, ....fear, ignorance, invovlement, greed or simple blockheadedness....it doesn't matter. Keep your head in the sand.

I'd debate you more directly, but you don't even make cogent arguments. You're just chanting your mantra without backing it up with any facts. It's easy to ignore.

 

This issue is so very much alive and still gathering steam....and evolving as we speak, that I am quite content to leave you and other pressing adherents to your fate. The only reason that I'm even responding to you directly is to make sure that any newcomers to the board understand that undisclosed pressing is fraud, that many big dealers and auction houses are involved and that reforms to the business will arrive eventually, whether voluntarily adopted or forced upon it.

 

Red

 

 

Great Analysis !

 

 

I am glad I am on the right side of history on this one. It is so obvious it aint funny.

 

BACK IN THE 80's....these guys LIKE TTH2 AND SFILOSA would be saying BIG COLLECTOR'S dont care about restoration. Since most people dont know about it,...and the big collector's dont care IIt will have no affect on anything relating to value....DIDNT WORK OUT THIS WAY,..DID IT ?

 

HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tth2]

BACK IN THE 80's....these guys LIKE TTH2 AND SFILOSA would be saying BIG COLLECTOR'S dont care about restoration.

Hey slander breath, before you start labeling people, you better do your homework and figure out where they stand on issues first. There are few people on these boards more virulently opposed to pressing or restoration than me.

[krazykat-migration]

Slander ? Huh !!! Use terms correctly,..DUMBO !!!!

[krazykat-migration]

sfilosa,

 

I have to disagree. AT THE HIGH-END pressing does matter.

 

No one will pay 30K - 120K for a book and not wanna have some understanding of everything relevant which influences price.

 

Pressing is relevant because it can/ and potentially more so in the future undermine the value of a comic book.

 

Show me someone who spends 30K PLUS on a comic book and doesnt care about pressing,....

 

 

Let me make this quite clear.

 

MANY of the BIG COLLECTORS (who are still collecting) DON'T BELIEVE PRESSING IS RESTORATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

When you use dumb- arguments like this,...dont be surprised by reasoned assumptions that you are justifying pressing.

 

DUMB-!!!

[tth2]

You make quite a number of claims about the "big collector" who doesn't care whether their books are pressed or not, and who is happy (no, overjoyed) to pay the same price. And I don't mean

 

Who is that?

 

How many pressed book do you have Steve? Which ones are they? You can't say, because you don't KNOW! And you obviously, don't WANT to know.

 

Did you pay the same price as a non-pressed book? Again, since you can't identify which books in your collection have been flattened, you can't answer.

 

Find me a couple of BSD collectors who will come out in public and say that they have purchased pressed books knowingly as unrestored books, and intend to keep them and not try to pass them off on slightly less bigger collectors further down the food chain like you. Or shunt them off via a Heritage auction.

Brad, to be fair to Steve F, the following BSDs have publicly stated that they don`t have a problem with pressing: Borock and Schmell on these boards, and apparently at Mark Zaid`s panel in SD, Rich Evans.

 

Now, you raise a very valid point which is whether any of these guys would put their money where their mouth is. Doug has publicly stated he would shell out well over $100K for a 9.4 Hulk 1, and we know a 9.4 FF 3 is probably #2 on his priority list. So, would he still pay well over $100K for a 9.4 Hulk 1 if the seller were to tell him that it`s one of the current 9.2 or 9.0 copies, but pressed and resubbed up to a 9.4? Or would he pay a new, record shattering price for the FF 3 (which we know he would for a "natural" 9.4 copy) in a similar situation?

 

I don`t mean to pick on Doug, because I respect the fact that he`s been open about this issue. Unfortunately he`s also one of the few BSDs who I can use as an example because he HAS been public about it.

 

The thing I really don`t like about Steve F`s argument is that because a small circle of big collectors decided that pressing wasn`t a big deal, that it therefore shouldn`t be a big deal to the rest of us either. As you rightly point out, if it were something that us rank and file collectors could have had a choice on, at least we would`ve had a chance to vote with our feet. And who knows, perhaps the reaction of the majority of collectors would`ve been a big yawn. Certainly there are sophisticated collectors on these boards who`ve taken that position, so this is not unlikely. But we never even got a chance to make an informed decision, because the powers that be made the decision for us and, even more paternistically, never let us know that the decision had even been made or that there was even an issue.

 

There was certainly a cabal of collectors/dealers who tried to do the same thing with "traditional" restoration, and foist it upon the market as an acceptable thing. I guess the difference there was that such methods of restoration COULD be detected and there were sufficient voices of well known collectors/dealers such as Keith Contarino who forced the issue to be kept in the open until the tide turned. As I wrote the last sentence, I`ve suddenly realized that perhaps the biggest problem that we anti-pressers have is that there is no big name who has been willing to consistently and publicly take on the pressing crowd in the same way. Sure, there`s Marnin, but because of his anti-CGC baggage he`s too easy for the pro-pressers to discredit and he`s therefore marginalized himself in this debate. I suspect there are a few BSD dealers out there who are anti-pressing, but for one reason or another they have been unwilling to publicly take a stand and rally the troops around them.