How have label chasers affected the hobby

[sfilosa]

Aman, I have to admit I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't think I've seen the kind of horizontal printing creases that you're referring to. At first I thought you were talking about nut sac creases, but those don't need to be held to the light to see them.

 

 

There are two types of Printing Creases that I know about.

 

The printing crease where the paper actually folds on top of each other and it very noticable regardless of the angle. These creases usually go to the edge (or start there).

 

The second is more of a squigly crease that doesn't have to go to the edge. And it is almost impossible to see unless it is angled. Very hard to see thru the slab. Many EC comics have this type of crease at the top or bottom of the book and it is very uniform (but doesn't have to be).

 

I don't believe CGC downgrades for either one of these.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I just find it somewhat mind-numbing that CGC can give these defects the smack-down on one hand, and take a stance that the removal of the same defects is "no big deal" on the other.

 

Thats the post of the year! We've been all over the pressing thing for a long time and NOBODY ever pointed out this ridiculous inconsistency!!

Bravo!

 

 

I said the exact same thing many moons ago .

 

Got a response from SB here

[Aman619]

no you didnt!

[THE_BEYONDER]

Dagnammit!!! Does everyone here have me on ignore?

[Aman619]

Dagnammit!!! Does everyone here have me on ignore?

[Psylocke Smythe-migration]

I feel that the advent of the 3rd party grading companies and label chasing has affected the market in both good and bad ways. My reasoning behind this statement is as follows:

 

On the good side you have the following: with the 3rd party grading, a comic that has been graded by one of the grading companies has taken some of the question marks away from what the comic book graded out as. Now the one problem with this statement is that people have to agree with the standards that the grading companies use for grading comics (which some do and some don’t). It has also let the buyer know with the use of the census figures, how many copies of that grade of comic book exists (if graded by CGC). This has helped to take some of the uncertainty out of the online auction market by people not having to worry if the seller’s raw comic in NM is the same as what the buyer considers as NM.

 

On the bad side, I feel that the effect of multiple guide prices that are being asked and what people are paying for anything higher then a 9.2 grade has pushed a lot of the average collectors out of the high grade market for books that have been slabbed. I’m not saying that this has affected everyone, but a lot of the people that can only spend a few hundred a month on comics I feel have been priced out the high grade slabbed market. For example, when you have a slabbed 9.2 Batman 227 sell for almost 9 times the 2005 OS guide price, I feel that this is pricing a lot of average people out of the market. I personally don’t mind paying a little over guide for a nice copy of a comic that I want and I consider a 9.2 or higher, but I won’t pay 2 or more times guide. I collect for the enjoyment of the hobby first and the investment value second.

 

It also feel that these multiples being paid, has encouraged some sellers to try to restore some of the current in demand books and try to slip them past the grading companies in the hope that the books come back with the blue label. With the knowledge that if they can slip them past the grading companies and get a 9.4 or higher, they can easily double their money on some of the books they are trying to sell.

 

Know I'm not saying that every seller is doing this, just that I feel, that for some sellers, the chance to be able to sell the book for 6 to 10 times guide would be hard to pass up.

 

So in summary I think it has both helped and hurt the hobby.

 

Psy

[sfilosa]

On the bad side, I feel that the effect of multiple guide prices that are being asked and what people are paying for anything higher then a 9.2 grade has pushed a lot of the average collectors out of the high grade market for books that have been slabbed.

 

I have to disagree with this being "BAD". Simply put it's supply and demand. The average PERSON, doesn't get the house on the beach like the wealthier people do. Said a different way, if there are enough people willing to pay $XXX for a book in HG, why should that book sell for only $XX, so an AVERAGE COLLECTOR could afford it?

 

Collectors have ALWAYS complained that High Grade books were too expensive. Yes, the prices have gone up dramatically on HG books because of CGC, but that's because the POPULATION of what is TRULY High Grade has shrunk (as not everybodies NM are CGC's NM's).

 

If the average collector can't afford to buy HG books, then they should collect mid-grade or low-grade. That's the capitalistic society at work.

[tth2]

Psylocke, a very nice summary.

 

And welcome to the boards!

[Red Hook]

Steve, how many SA books do you have in your collection, slabbed, that

 

a) you know for a fact were pressed

 

and

 

b) you suspect were pressed?

 

and

 

c) what percentage of your collection do these books make up?

 

and finally

 

d) if you put these up for auction, or sold them to another boardie, would you share your info, or your suspicions?

 

And in response to Psylocke's summary post......as I've said before...... [/b]it's about the money.

[sfilosa]

Steve, how many SA books do you have in your collection, slabbed, that

 

a) you know for a fact were pressed

 

and

 

b) you suspect were pressed?

 

and

 

c) what percentage of your collection do these books make up?

 

and finally

 

d) if you put these up for auction, or sold them to another boardie, would you share your info, or your suspicions?

 

And in response to Psylocke's summary post......as I've said before...... it's about the money.

 

I would suspect that have a number of pressed books (maybe 10-20 out of 250), just because in some cases the overhang just looks too straight without the slightest bending (and on early SA Marvel's just putting the book in a bag at some point would create at least a touch of bending). Realize that CGC does not downgrade for this bending, it just doesn't look as nice as a straight overhang.

 

Even if I knew for a fact a book was pressed, I wouldn't say it was pressed unless someone asked. And if I had a suspicion, but didn't know for a fact, then I would say I have no idea as that's the way I bought the book.

 

If it makes you feel better, IF CGC decided to start putting PRESSED on the LABEL (be it Universal or Restored), I would STOP COLLECTING AGAIN.

 

I stopped a while ago, because I got tired of paying for one thing and getting something else. If CGC changed their stance, then the same reasons for me quitting awhile ago, would have happened again. No CONFIDENCE that what I OWN / BUY will be SEEN the same way from a POTENTIAL BUYER.

 

Do many COLLECTORS / DEALERS press books for the additional profits, OF COURSE. But that's the reason most get the book CGC'd in the first place (for additional profits).

[skybolt]

I would suspect that have a number of pressed books (maybe 10-20 out of 250), just because in some cases the overhang just looks too straight without the slightest bending (and on early SA Marvel's just putting the book in a bag at some point would create at least a touch of bending). Realize that CGC does not downgrade for this bending, it just doesn't look as nice as a straight overhang.

 

Even if I knew for a fact a book was pressed, I wouldn't say it was pressed unless someone asked. And if I had a suspicion, but didn't know for a fact, then I would say I have no idea as that's the way I bought the book.

 

If it makes you feel better, IF CGC decided to start putting PRESSED on the LABEL (be it Universal or Restored), I would STOP COLLECTING AGAIN.

 

I stopped a while ago, because I got tired of paying for one thing and getting something else. If CGC changed their stance, then the same reasons for me quitting awhile ago, would have happened again. No CONFIDENCE that what I OWN / BUY will be SEEN the same way from a POTENTIAL BUYER.

 

Do many COLLECTORS / DEALERS press books for the additional profits, OF COURSE. But that's the reason most get the book CGC'd in the first place (for additional profits).

 

sfilosa,

 

I pretty much agree with your honest response. Why are collectors always left holding the bag?

 

If pressing can be detected 90 to 100% of the time in the near future, then I would place my books under investigation like everyone else. However, I hate this witch hunt attitude where only obviously resubmitted or bought from certain dealer books be frowned upon.

 

If Person A had his books personally and professionally pressed 10 years ago with absolutely no records of this act, then he's off the hook. On the other hand, Person B unknowingly purchases some reslabbed books 2 years ago and is now out 50% of his investments because the books can be tracked and labeled as pressed. I'm all for pressed books being identified, but I want every single book from every single collection be placed under the same microscope. I would hate to see Person A double his profit on his non-traceable pressed books at my expense.

[THE_BEYONDER]

This whole thing is just a giant mess...and I'm not sure CGC will be able to clean it all up this late in the game. The only thing keeping it all from crashing down is the fact that the majority of collectors/investors are unaware. I read it time & time again on these boards that " the majority of collectors don't care ", and how " overblown these issues are on these boards ".

 

It's only a matter of time before NDP & SCS become 'common knowledge', and the multiples being paid for CGC 9.8s over 9.6s disappear. How many 9.8s or better do you think have suffered from post-slabbing damage? How many 9.6/9.8s were once 9.0/9.2s?

 

Even if you were to set all of the above aside....it has been well documented on these boards that grades can fluctuate +/- .2 upon resubmission.

 

Call it a 'game'.....call it a 'gamble', but once the RISK becomes publicly identified....it's over. Just my opinion of course.....

[Red Hook]

Great post, Bey......although scary!

 

And thanks for your responses, Steve.

[topofthetotem]

Bring on the crash I woud rather it happen sooner then later before more people who dont diversify their investments loose their life savings in comics. These soft money "investors" and the slick dealers will move on to other collectables and markets

the slick dealer makes the quick bucks and the poor shmoo who invested $3500.00 in some bronze book cgc'ed 9.x will not be missed by me at all

[krazykat-migration]

This whole thing is just a giant mess...and I'm not sure CGC will be able to clean it all up this late in the game. The only thing keeping it all from crashing down is the fact that the majority of collectors/investors are unaware. I read it time & time again on these boards that " the majority of collectors don't care ", and how " overblown these issues are on these boards ".

 

It's only a matter of time before NDP & SCS become 'common knowledge', and the multiples being paid for CGC 9.8s over 9.6s disappear. How many 9.8s or better do you think have suffered from post-slabbing damage? How many 9.6/9.8s were once 9.0/9.2s?

 

Even if you were to set all of the above aside....it has been well documented on these boards that grades can fluctuate +/- .2 upon resubmission.

 

Call it a 'game'.....call it a 'gamble', but once the RISK becomes publicly identified....it's over. Just my opinion of course.....

 

You speaketh what I believe to be the trutheth'

[delekkerste]

This whole thing is just a giant mess...and I'm not sure CGC will be able to clean it all up this late in the game. The only thing keeping it all from crashing down is the fact that the majority of collectors/investors are unaware. I read it time & time again on these boards that " the majority of collectors don't care ", and how " overblown these issues are on these boards ".

 

It's only a matter of time before NDP & SCS become 'common knowledge', and the multiples being paid for CGC 9.8s over 9.6s disappear. How many 9.8s or better do you think have suffered from post-slabbing damage? How many 9.6/9.8s were once 9.0/9.2s?

 

Even if you were to set all of the above aside....it has been well documented on these boards that grades can fluctuate +/- .2 upon resubmission.

 

Call it a 'game'.....call it a 'gamble', but once the RISK becomes publicly identified....it's over. Just my opinion of course.....

 

Good points, Beyonder. However, it's not only the risk of increased public awareness that is hanging over the market like the Sword of Damocles, but also the fact that the supply of HG/super HG slabbed books is increasing slowly (and, for some books, not so slowly) but surely. I'm not sure if some of the collectors on this Board, including some big spenders, are naive, in denial and/or trying to preserve the value of their "investments", but, from what I am hearing, the pressing phenomenon is much bigger than they realize and claim it is.

 

Not only are more dealers engaged in pressing than people think, but more books are being pressed than they realize as well. There is still some false illusion out there that pressing is something that can only be done by the Matt Nelsons and Susan Cicconis of the world for a high fee. Wrong, Wrong, WRONG!! I'm not going to name names, but there are collectors and dealers out there who I have heard have become quite proficient pressers in their own right. And should this really be surprising, given the outsized financial rewards to be gained from the practice in recent years? It would only take a handful of upgrades to pay for the equipment and time spent learning the trade.

 

People can believe what they want to believe, but I think the steady stream of flattened, upgraded books with the current CGC label hitting the market over the past year or two speaks for itself, IMO.

[joe_collector]

Yes, the prices have gone up dramatically on HG books because of CGC, but that's because the POPULATION of what is TRULY High Grade has shrunk

 

You really have absolutely no clue, do you?

[Norrin_Radd]

"Skeptics are never deceived." - French proverb

 

They are also never happy.

[sfilosa]

Quote:

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Yes, the prices have gone up dramatically on HG books because of CGC, but that's because the POPULATION of what is TRULY High Grade has shrunk

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

You really have absolutely no clue, do you?

 

 

Actually, I have no clue what you mean.

 

What I'm saying is that most people's NM's ten years ago, are not CGC 9.4's.

 

That's a fact.

 

MANY COLLECTORS thought they had TRUE NM books (even a key or two in their collection). I bought many KEYS as NM's and while I wasn't CONVINCED that they were, I definitely didn't think they were VF'S. Well, CGC called them 8.0/8.5, which is still a great book, but does not carry the premium that a CGC 9.4 carries.

 

In defense of you compared to me, I buy almost exclusively SA and you buy BA. I'm sure there are many more BA ungraded NM books out there (or can be NM's from Pressing), then there are in the SA. There are books in the SA that only come around every year or two in 9.0, and sell for $100's-1,000's of dollars and to believe that the population on those books is just going to jump in the next few years, is just a falacy. Yes, maybe a few collectors will cash in (and CGC their books), but these books are sitting in dealers overlooked boxes, that's for sure.

[Aman619]

Quote:

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Yes, the prices have gone up dramatically on HG books because of CGC, but that's because the POPULATION of what is TRULY High Grade has shrunk

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

You really have absolutely no clue, do you?

 

 

Actually, I have no clue what you mean.

 

What I'm saying is that most people's NM's ten years ago, are not CGC 9.4's.

 

That's a fact.

 

MANY COLLECTORS thought they had TRUE NM books (even a key or two in their collection). I bought many KEYS as NM's and while I wasn't CONVINCED that they were, I definitely didn't think they were VF'S. Well, CGC called them 8.0/8.5, which is still a great book, but does not carry the premium that a CGC 9.4 carries.

 

In defense of you compared to me, I buy almost exclusively SA and you buy BA. I'm sure there are many more BA ungraded NM books out there (or can be NM's from Pressing), then there are in the SA. There are books in the SA that only come around every year or two in 9.0, and sell for $100's-1,000's of dollars and to believe that the population on those books is just going to jump in the next few years, is just a falacy. Yes, maybe a few collectors will cash in (and CGC their books), but these books are sitting in dealers overlooked boxes, that's for sure.

 

Dont worry - - - thats how I read your statement earlier. And while Gene may be right about pressing being more commonplce than we might want to believe, as you go up the scale in grade and back in time (pre-1963 for instance) the candidates for pressing improvement and successful upgrades diminish in numbers. I wish I could believe that it ISN'Y happenning, or that it was impossible on those early books.... but Im not kidding myself. I know the biggest profits arein these books when 'fixed', so lets hope these guys cant find enought workable candidates to really swell the census.

 

And, watching the census as I do each update, I havent seen egregious examples of swelling on these early books. Certainly not more than the expected nuber of HG raw copies to emerge from collections.

 

But, it sstill a threat well worth monitoring.....