HOLY [embarrasing lack of self control]..ADVENTURE COMICS 72 CGC 9.8 ALREADY @ $37500

[esquirecomics]

And you're saying that we need CGC to tell us it's a 9.6 or a 9.8 in order to pay a premium?

 

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am saying.

 

In the 1980's and 90's pre-CGC world I have NEVER seen a comic that a dealer sold as a 9.6 for $X be subsequently resold as a 9.8 for multiples of the original price, just because it is now a "dealer 9.8" rather than a "dealer 9.6".

 

The kind of CGC multiples we see today simply were not present on already-pristine NM+ books that a dealer may have somehow upgraded from "dealer 9.6" to "dealer 9.8".

 

There is truth down the middle for both accounts. But clearly in the pre-CGC days, probably a now CGC 9.2 was anywhere between a VF+ to NM, and anything above a 9.2 was either NM/M, Mint, or Mint+. I am sure there were exceptions to the practice, but I don't recall vast multiples between those word grades as we see with numeric grades. Of course, certain pedigrees always received multiples regardless.

 

In any event, this is exactly why CGC needs to be absolutely as consistent as humanly possible because, for whatever reason, the numeric grading system has caused these inane multiples to occur simply because a book is a 9.2 vs 9.4 vs. 9.6 and so on. A one grade difference now does mean major $$$$$$$$$$. So when we see books that don't appear to fit the grade, and can't understand why b/c CGC won't reveal its grading standards, or when we see books that have, for whatever reason, jumped in grade, it is something we should be concerned about b/c such shifts can/will ultimately denigrate the value of CGC. Then we all suffer, and I don't relish that given how many CGC books I have of high $$$ value.

[Foolkiller]

All of this discussion reminds me why I am happier with 8.5s and 8.0s (with good eye appeal) and collecting archives, trades and building a library of reading material. It's a nice book, but I just can't equate the huge steps up in price for each level (9.2 to 9.4 to 9.6 etc).

[topofthetotem]

In CGC's defense they are making mad money would you give up the secret of making 1000.00 in 1/2 hour!

No! of course not! Not for your customers or anybody else unless they got some sort of legal action behind them and even then you would fight it because the dollar makes the world go around. CGC has too much to lose and nothing to gain from revealing they'er grading scales

[joe_collector]

Not to mention the CGC Grading Criteria has continued to evolve since Day 1, and even if they were to tell it to us today, it would likely change tomorrow.

 

That's the biggest benefit to not spilling the beans, no one knows when you change it.

[shrunkenhead]

Joe, in general I may agree with you, as I've voiced before on these boards that I am not a great fan of the 9.6/9.8 distinction.

 

However, if we're talking about the book in question (the adventure book on heritage), all I see is a book that is currently going for double guide, a book that is a HG golden age key from the most famous collection in our hobby. Nothing to get nervous about just yet.

 

And I'd further suggest that GA books have been the least "manipulated" in terms of pricing in the post-CGC world.

[Silver Surfer]

In CGC's defense they are making mad money would you give up the secret of making 1000.00 in 1/2 hour!

No! of course not! Not for your customers or anybody else unless they got some sort of legal action behind them and even then you would fight it because the dollar makes the world go around. CGC has too much to lose and nothing to gain from revealing they'er grading scales

 

Sorry but that logic is ridiculous. Apologists statements such as this just frustrate me to no end as they just weaken the CGC side of the arguement. They could still outline a fairly detailed grade criteria and qualify it accordingly to cover off any legal issues, similar to how they have been issuing disclaimers on the back of their labels for years.

 

"Nothing to gain?" How about some credibility and consumer confidence. Sorry but do people really give stuff like this some thought before blindly jumping to CGC's defense?

[esquirecomics]

In CGC's defense they are making mad money would you give up the secret of making 1000.00 in 1/2 hour!

No! of course not! Not for your customers or anybody else unless they got some sort of legal action behind them and even then you would fight it because the dollar makes the world go around. CGC has too much to lose and nothing to gain from revealing they'er grading scales

 

Sorry but that logic is ridiculous. Apologists statements such as this just frustrate me to no end as they just weaken the CGC side of the arguement. They could still outline a fairly detailed grade criteria and qualify it accordingly to cover off any legal issues, similar to how they have been issuing disclaimers on the back of their labels for years.

 

"Nothing to gain?" How about some credibility and consumer confidence. Sorry but do people really give stuff like this some thought before blindly jumping to CGC's defense?

 

I agree with Silver. That is not a "defense" for CGC, it is merely an "excuse". There is a significant and fundamental difference between the two. One might be acceptable, the other perhaps is understandable but it is not acceptable.

[sterlingcomics]

IMO CGC's main goal is to make money!!!

 

Well, there's a revolutionary concept.

[sterlingcomics]

All of this discussion reminds me why I am happier with 8.5s and 8.0s (with good eye appeal) and collecting archives, trades and building a library of reading material. It's a nice book, but I just can't equate the huge steps up in price for each level (9.2 to 9.4 to 9.6 etc).

 

I'm teetering back and forth on this one...as I currently do both.

[sterlingcomics]

Not to mention the CGC Grading Criteria has continued to evolve since Day 1, and even if they were to tell it to us today, it would likely change tomorrow.

 

That's the biggest benefit to not spilling the beans, no one knows when you change it.

 

So, I'm not crazy when grades come back too strict, too lax, and then just right? Phew. I was getting worried there.

[OldGuy]

IMO CGC's main goal is to make money!!!

 

[rjpb]

In any event, this is exactly why CGC needs to be absolutely as consistent as humanly possible because, for whatever reason, the numeric grading system has caused these inane multiples to occur simply because a book is a 9.2 vs 9.4 vs. 9.6 and so on. A one grade difference now does mean major $$$$$$$$$$.

 

If the multiples are indeed inane, then perhaps what the hobby needs is less confidence that these numerical grades are somehow absolute. Widespread

aknowledgement of any lack of consistency on CGC's part should be a wakeup call that even if we could all come to an agreement on grading criteria, that the subjective element of grading will always lead to some wiggle room in the grading of a specific book. I'm not advocating that CGC avoid striving for consistency, but short of tracking the history of each book submitted, I don't know that it is humanly possible to be any more consistent than they already are. Perhaps that is not too much to ask, especially with pedigree books where it would be fairly easy, but a consistent grade is not the same thing as an accurate grade.

[Silver Surfer]

IMO CGC's main goal is to make money!!!

 

 

[nearmint]

If the multiples are indeed inane, then perhaps what the hobby needs is less confidence that these numerical grades are somehow absolute.

 

Don't we already have that? The vast majority of people who buy certified books, or have their own books certified, are well aware that books might end up with a different grade if they re-sub it. I haven't met anyone who thought a CGC grade was in any way absolute.

 

This is my biggest problem with Mark's argument. He's concerned that CGC's inconsistency will damage their rep and cause the market to be become more unstable. IMHO, people are already aware of CGC's inconsistency, but continue to send them books, and continue to bid on them. The cat is already out of the bag, CGC is doing just fine(as turn-around times will attest to) and prices are not nose-diving for true quality material.

[esquirecomics]

This is my biggest problem with Mark's argument. He's concerned that CGC's inconsistency will damage their rep and cause the market to be become more unstable. IMHO, people are already aware of CGC's inconsistency, but continue to send them books, and continue to bid on them. The cat is already out of the bag, CGC is doing just fine(as turn-around times will attest to) and prices are not nose-diving for true quality material.

 

But Jeff is this really true that the cat is out of the bag? Of course it is for those of us on the boards, but there are many, many people who don't know much about CGC or even if they do, they don't know about the intracacies of which we speak now. Pressing is definitely one of those topics.

 

I didn't know of CGC until 2003 b/c I was out of the mainstream hobby for awhile. Talk to numerous dealers at shows and they will tell you that many people still come up to them and ask what the "slab" is.

 

I am not persuaded, which is no slight to you, that knowledge of these topics is as widespread as you think. Hence my concern.

[nearmint]

This is my biggest problem with Mark's argument. He's concerned that CGC's inconsistency will damage their rep and cause the market to be become more unstable. IMHO, people are already aware of CGC's inconsistency, but continue to send them books, and continue to bid on them. The cat is already out of the bag, CGC is doing just fine(as turn-around times will attest to) and prices are not nose-diving for true quality material.

 

But Jeff is this really true that the cat is out of the bag? Of course it is for those of us on the boards, but there are many, many people who don't know much about CGC or even if they do, they don't know about the intracacies of which we speak now. Pressing is definitely one of those topics.

 

I didn't know of CGC until 2003 b/c I was out of the mainstream hobby for awhile. Talk to numerous dealers at shows and they will tell you that many people still come up to them and ask what the "slab" is.

 

I am not persuaded, which is no slight to you, that knowledge of these topics is as widespread as you think. Hence my concern.

 

What I'm saying is that the cat it out of the bag for collectors who buy slabs, or have their own raw books certified. Someone who has to ask what a slab is doesn't fall into that category.

 

You're saying that CGC's inconsistency is going to affect the market. I'm saying that market trends can only be affected by those in the market. For the vast majority of collectors active in the slab market, the cat leapt from the bag some time ago.

[esquirecomics]

What I'm saying is that the cat it out of the bag for collectors who buy slabs, or have their own raw books certified. Someone who has to ask what a slab is doesn't fall into that category.

 

You're saying that CGC's inconsistency is going to affect the market. I'm saying that market trends can only be affected by those in the market. For the vast majority of collectors active in the slab market, the cat leapt from the bag some time ago.

 

Well, I hope you're right, but I'm not convinced.

 

There is a lot of new money being brought into the hobby, particularly as investors rather than collectors (which perhaps you want to make a distinction). The problem is that the big money investors impact the market significantly.

 

Parrino is a perfect example. He came into comics from coins with millions of dollars to spend, and now - after apparently being disillusioned for whatever reason - he is dumping many of his books. Some would say, like tth2, that such an action significantly impacts the market and the hobby. I don't subscribe to the extent of impact Tim suggests, but an impact there is. And more will likely follow. Heritage is pushing people big time from other hobbies to spend money on comics. Odds are the spenders know little to nothing about CGC or the issues we discuss on this board. Maybe they don't care, but tell that to Parrino or Nick Cage. Why aren't they in the hobby anymore?

[nearmint]

Cage left the hobby for philosophical reasons. I've seen him interviewed about it, and he said he sold the comics and his cars because he no longer felt right about trying to find happiness from external material goods, rather than finding fulfillment within(or some such BS).

 

Of course big money investors impact the market, but I highly doubt Parrino left the hobby due to CGC's inconsistency. I suspect it had a lot more to do with the fact that he paid top dollar on a lot of books, then was inexplicably surprised when he couldn't make a profit on them.

 

Big money investors earned their big money by being smart. They'll do their research just like wall street investors do. Small time investors are less likely to be aware, but also have little or no impact on the market.

[rjpb]

If it is widely understood that grades are not consistent enough to warrant multiples for small increments in the 9.X grades, then why would buyers continue to pay them? Either they believe that enough will continue to "buy the label" to justify the investment, or they believe that they have a discerning eye that can pick out potentially undergraded books.

[Foolkiller]

i've heard the same thing from cage. I also heard he regretted his decision somewhat.... as for Parrino, I seriously doubt it had anything to do with lack of confidence in CGC consistency.