ANT-MAN & THE WASP QUANTUMANIA directed by Peyton Reed (2023) 11 11

[Bo1983]

Wiki has it at 357 million

[paperheart]

On 2/19/2023 at 8:40 PM, Bo1983 said:

Wiki has it at 357 million

It’s wrong 

[Bo1983]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:36 AM, paperheart said:

It’s wrong 

I did not say it is right!

[fantastic_four]

On 2/19/2023 at 11:24 AM, Bosco685 said:

 

 

Does anyone have perspective on what China's overall box office is like in 2023 as compared to pre-Covid?  I know they've been struggling with it longer between outbreaks and their government's Zero Covid policy that they finally abandoned, so I'm not entirely surprised to see box office numbers down there.  But I really have no clear idea what their society is like right now which limits my perspective on the third film making well under half of what the previous two made.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 2/18/2023 at 3:48 PM, fmaz said:

Let’s face it, saying “the MCU is played out and this has gone one too long” isn’t a criticism of this current movie.

Sure it is. Marvel has a formula, and they're sticking to it. Once you've witnessed the same unfunny slapstick for the 20th time, you're going to get sick of it, and tell the world. Quantumania doesn't deviate from the formula, hence the easy avenue to criticism.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 2/19/2023 at 8:06 AM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

That said, without spoiling anything, it was very strange (and very noticeable) how Kang's power level varied so widely to suit the plot.  When he needed to be invincible, he was -- the slightest wave of his hand could render the heroes completely helpless, and the blasts from his suit were literally vaporizing anything they hit.  And then suddenly, when he needed to be beatable, he was -- his blasts knocking the heroes down but causing no real damage, and just standing there doing nothing for long periods while the cavalry showed up.  There was also no explanation of exactly why he sometimes activates the blue "mask" part of his costume, and what that supposedly does for him.

As soon as I noticed this I kinda checked-out of the 3rd Act. Ant-Man is not a Kang-level threat.

[Bosco685]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:20 AM, fantastic_four said:

Does anyone have perspective on what China's overall box office is like in 2023 as compared to pre-Covid?  I know they've been struggling with it longer between outbreaks and their government's Zero Covid policy that they finally abandoned, so I'm not entirely surprised to see box office numbers down there.  But I really have no clear idea what their society is like right now which limits my perspective on the third film making well under half of what the previous two made.

Since the pandemic I think the two highest worldwide films have been F9 and Avatar 2.

F9: $216,935,282

Avatar 2: $242,470,812

It's been hit or miss depending on outbreaks and China Film Committee blocks content.

[drotto]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:17 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Sure it is. Marvel has a formula, and they're sticking to it. Once you've witnessed the same unfunny slapstick for the 20th time, you're going to get sick of it, and tell the world. Quantumania doesn't deviate from the formula, hence the easy avenue to criticism.

I think an issue the MCU has now is everything looks kinda the same, and all revolves around the multiverse.  We used to have more variety in phases 1 to 3.  We had some cosmic, a little touch of multiverse, some Astral plane/mystical, mech type stuff, more grounded espionage and war base.  It was fairly diverse thematically,  in looks, and somewhat in genre. 

 

In phase 4 movies, it has been basically all multiverse/mystical and somewhat cosmic.  All the other genres are gone, in addition the MCU's cosmic, multiverse, and Astral plane stuff look visually and feel very similar.  I can see how average audiences can't tell the difference.  Furthermore, the plots are leaning so heavily into the multiverse idea, again leading to less variety.  So, it feels even more formulaic.  You could argue that BP2, was thematically different and much more grounded (it was to a degree), but the look and design of Namore and his people drifted back into that same "multiverse" look.

 

Audiences are already getting tired of the multiverse, it is confusing at times, but more importantly it all feels like the same movie, with small changes in characters and plot.

Edited February 20, 2023 by drotto

[PeterPark]

On 2/20/2023 at 9:20 AM, drotto said:

I think an issue the MCU has now is everything looks kinda the same, and all revolves around the multiverse.  We used to have more variety in phases 1 to 3.  We had some cosmic, a little touch of multiverse, some Astral plane/mystical, mech type stuff, more grounded espionage and war base.  It was fairly diverse thematically,  in looks, and somewhat in genre. 

 

In phase 4 movies, it has been basically all multiverse/mystical and somewhat cosmic.  All the other genres are gone, in addition the MCU's cosmic, multiverse, and Astral plane stuff look visually and feel very similar.  I can see how average audiences can't tell the difference.  Furthermore, the plots are leaning so heavily into the multiverse idea, again leading to less variety.  So, it feels even more formulaic.  You could argue that BP2, was thematically different and much more grounded (it was to a degree), but the look and design of Namore and his people drifted back into that same "multiverse" look.

 

Audiences are already getting tired of the multiverse, it is confusing at times, but more importantly it all feels like the same movie, with small changes in characters and plot.

Maybe Daredevil will help return some of the streetverse to the MCU as a bit of a change...

[drotto]

On 2/20/2023 at 9:41 AM, PeterPark said:

Maybe Daredevil will help return some of the streetverse to the MCU as a bit of a change...

The more grounded stuff has been somewhat present in shows like Hawkeye and She Hulk, but the general audience is not watching those shows (Disney had zero shows in the top 15 streaming shows of the year), so it is irrelevant to the problem.  Variety needs to be brought back to the movies. Gardians, and The Marvels being the next two movies is only going to compound the issue. Poor idea to release 3 cosmic looking films in a row.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 2/20/2023 at 9:20 AM, drotto said:

I think an issue the MCU has now is everything looks kinda the same, and all revolves around the multiverse.  We used to have more variety in phases 1 to 3.  We had some cosmic, a little touch of multiverse, some Astral plane/mystical, mech type stuff, more grounded espionage and war base.  It was fairly diverse thematically,  in looks, and somewhat in genre. 

In phase 4 movies, it has been basically all multiverse/mystical and somewhat cosmic.  All the other genres are gone, in addition the MCU's cosmic, multiverse, and Astral plane stuff look visually and feel very similar.  I can see how average audiences can't tell the difference.  Furthermore, the plots are leaning so heavily into the multiverse idea, again leading to less variety.  So, it feels even more formulaic.  You could argue that BP2, was thematically different and much more grounded (it was to a degree), but the look and design of Namore and his people drifted back into that same "multiverse" look.

Audiences are already getting tired of the multiverse, it is confusing at times, but more importantly it all feels like the same movie, with small changes in characters and plot.

?

IMO, Phase One movies definitely all felt like the same movie in cinematic style, with bright flat comedy style lighting to fit stories that never got too dark thematically. It wasn't until Phase Two that the MCU stretched its style with Captain America Winter Soldier which looked and felt like a political action thriller, and got a little darker thematically. The remaining MCU Russo Bros movies followed this style. Every other movie through Phase Three (with the slight exception of Black Panther) has followed the basic style of Iron Man, that is, brightly-lit comedy-drama adventures. There wasn't a lot of deviation from that in Phases 1-3. Even GOTG was a funnier version of a movie shot in the style of Iron Man.

I think Phase Four is where we saw actual experimentation in style and theme, and part of that is due to the Disney+ shows, where Marvel was able to tell smaller stories and better explore the inner world of these characters. Black Widow and Falcon Winter Soldier were political action thrillers in the style of Captain America Winter Soldier. A lot of Shang-Chi was shot and told in the style of a Wuxia movie, like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon meets Pokemon. Each episode of WandaVision experimented with different shooting style that mirrored different generations of TV shows and modern film. Ms. Marvel was the MCU's true stab at a coming of age story, moreso than Spider-Man Homecoming IMO, and also the first American TV show to highlight a Muslim-American family. Eternals was an even bigger stretch for Marvel, experimenting with a brooding dark story that spanned different epochs of history. Multiverse of Madness was a Sam Raimi movie, a genre unto itself. Werewolf By Night was shot like an old school horror movie/show. She-Hulk was a straight up 4th wall breaking half hour legal comedy. The Phase Four MCU films and Disney+ shows probably couldn't have been further apart in theme and style. 

At the same time, a homogenous style has been the M.O. of Marvel Comics since 1962. They've basically told one story since Fantastic Four #1 and the emphasis has always been on the characters. This means there hasn't been much experimentation with storytelling style or character development in the pages of Marvel Comics. It's DC Comics where we saw more experimentation with character and storytelling style, with DC not afraid to completely reboot major characters in order to stay fresh. In some ways, Marvel Studios is following the M.O. of Marvel Comics for the past 60 years, which is one reason Marvel is so good at the continuous expanded universe thing, its part of its DNA. A slightly homogenous cinematic style is a symptom of that M.O., for better or worse. 

[fmaz]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:17 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Sure it is. Marvel has a formula, and they're sticking to it. Once you've witnessed the same unfunny slapstick for the 20th time, you're going to get sick of it, and tell the world. Quantumania doesn't deviate from the formula, hence the easy avenue to criticism.

I don’t agree. You may tire of eating the same meal every day, but if you liked it initially, and now you say you’re sick of it… you’re criticizing the repetition NOT the quality of the current meal you’re eating. Because you liked it the first time you ate it, so to now say you don’t like it is disingenuous.

In your case, you called it “the same UNFUNNY slapstick” … well, that means you didn’t like the original movies either, did you. If that’s the case, of course that’s fine.  Then that’s a reason not to enjoy this one. But you can’t rate the other ones highly and not this one. Why - did you formerly ENJOY unfunny slapstick? 😉

So, fine, make an argument — if you’re so inclined — that there are too many Marvel movies.  But THAT is not an objective evaluation of this current movie you are watching. That is my point.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by fmaz

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:30 AM, fmaz said:

I don’t agree. You may tire of eating the same meal every day, but if you liked it initially, and now you say you’re sick of it… you’re criticizing the repetition NOT the quality of the current meal you’re eating. Because you liked it the first time you ate it, so to now say you don’t like it is disingenuous.

So, fine, make an argument — if you’re so inclined — that there are too many Marvel movies.  But THAT is not an objective evaluation of this current movie you are watching. That is my point.

If you're going with the food analogy, it comes down to execution. After a week of Little Caesar's, I'm going to be sick of pizza. The same won't be said if I ate Georgio's Pizza for a week.

The formula is stale. It's not a matter of 'too many Marvel movies', rather too many poorly-executed films consecutively.

[fmaz]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:34 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

If you're going with the food analogy, it comes down to execution. After a week of Little Caesar's, I'm going to be sick of pizza. The same won't be said if I ate Georgio's Pizza for a week.

The formula is stale. It's not a matter of 'too many Marvel movies', rather too many poorly-executed films consecutively.

Yeah, sorry… your logic isn’t holding. Fine, be “sick of pizza” … but that doesn’t mean the pizza is any different than it was, you just are tired of it. But if you had to objectively rate the pizza you ate day one and the pizza you ate day 10… they’d be exactly the same. Get it?

Obviously I’m not arguing with your opinion at all… you like/don’t like what you like/don’t like… but I’m clearly not making my point well enough, so I’ll stop. No worries.

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Look at No Way Home. Still has that Marvel flair, but there was actual humanity and emotion in that movie. There was drama and stakes. The movie ended on serious notes without Peter Parker making lame jokes regarding his situation. Quantumania was lacking all of that.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:39 AM, fmaz said:

Yeah, sorry… your logic isn’t holding. Fine, be “sick of pizza” … but that doesn’t mean the pizza is any different than it was, you just are tired of it. But if you had to objectively rate the pizza you ate day one and the pizza you ate day 10… they’d be exactly the same. Get it?

Obviously I’m not arguing with your opinion at all… you like/don’t like what you like/don’t like… but I’m clearly not making my point well enough, so I’ll stop. No worries.

No, my logic is solid. Repeated mediocre pizza = makes one sick. Repeated high-quality pizza = still want pizza.

Why would the audience want to pay money to see a movie in theaters that they have on-disc at home, just with character skin swaps?

Edited February 20, 2023 by theCapraAegagrus

[Bosco685]

 

[drotto]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:23 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

?

IMO, Phase One movies definitely all felt like the same movie in cinematic style, with bright flat comedy style lighting to fit stories that never got too dark thematically. It wasn't until Phase Two that the MCU stretched its style with Captain America Winter Soldier which looked and felt like a political action thriller, and got a little darker thematically. The remaining MCU Russo Bros movies followed this style. Every other movie through Phase Three (with the slight exception of Black Panther) has followed the basic style of Iron Man, that is, brightly-lit comedy-drama adventures. There wasn't a lot of deviation from that in Phases 1-3. Even GOTG was a funnier version of a movie shot in the style of Iron Man.

I think Phase Four is where we saw actual experimentation in style and theme, and part of that is due to the Disney+ shows, where Marvel was able to tell smaller stories and better explore the inner world of these characters. Black Widow and Falcon Winter Soldier were political action thrillers in the style of Captain America Winter Soldier. A lot of Shang-Chi was shot and told in the style of a Wuxia movie, like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon meets Pokemon. Each episode of WandaVision experimented with different shooting style that mirrored different generations of TV shows and modern film. Ms. Marvel was the MCU's true stab at a coming of age story, moreso than Spider-Man Homecoming IMO, and also the first American TV show to highlight a Muslim-American family. Eternals was an even bigger stretch for Marvel, experimenting with a brooding dark story that spanned different epochs of history. Multiverse of Madness was a Sam Raimi movie, a genre unto itself. Werewolf By Night was shot like an old school horror movie/show. She-Hulk was a straight up 4th wall breaking half hour legal comedy. The Phase Four MCU films and Disney+ shows probably couldn't have been further apart in theme and style. 

At the same time, a homogenous style has been the M.O. of Marvel Comics since 1962. They've basically told one story since Fantastic Four #1 and the emphasis has always been on the characters. This means there hasn't been much experimentation with storytelling style or character development in the pages of Marvel Comics. It's DC Comics where we saw more experimentation with character and storytelling style, with DC not afraid to completely reboot major characters in order to stay fresh. In some ways, Marvel Studios is following the M.O. of Marvel Comics for the past 60 years, which is one reason Marvel is so good at the continuous expanded universe thing, its part of its DNA. A slightly homogenous cinematic style is a symptom of that M.O., for better or worse. 

I did say the shows have some more variety, but are irrelevant.   You have the largest movie franchise every, and not a single one cracked the top 15 steaming shows for the year.  That means the hardest core fans are watching the shows, but the general casual audience is not.  I am also no referring to the diversity of the cast or characters in the shows, that again is somewhat irrelevant.  I am talking about the look, the structure, and the general plots of the movies, those have been very similar in execution and feel. More than the previous phases.  

 

Shang Chi may have started as a king foo movie, but went to the mystic at the end, that looked very similar to what Dr. Strange had already given us.  Then we got MoM another similar looking weird Astral zone film, which looks very similar to the Quantum zone, which looks very similar to the cosmic in the MCU. Yes, NWH also falls into this trap. So while elements are different, all these zone look and feel very similar.   They are all alternate zones or realities,  and thematically all deal with different dimensions and realities. Thus the plots all deal with that multiverse.  I am not denying that the -script is different, the characters are different, and plot points are different.  But, visually they look very similar, and the general public just sees yet another multiverse story, and they either do not grasp, get confused by, or do not care about the subtle differences. 

 

It was far easier for a general casual movie goer to spot the thematic and visual difference between the Captian America films vs Gardians of the Galaxy vs Iron Man vs Dr Strange, then it is to visually separate what is being done now. Every story is now going to a CGI over the top new area.  It has lost its grounding in the real world. So yes someone that has seen every film, and knows the comics, sees the variations, thr normals don't.   You must have the casual views to keep the MCU viable. 

 

I also strongly feel the general audiences do not like Multiverse stories.  They find them confusing and convoluted, and they clearly lower the over stakes.  The general audience (IMO) has not clue what they were watching with Kang in the end credit scene. So they are immediately disconnected from those scenes. I can not think of a multiverse story that have wide spread and sustained appeal, and all we get now is multiverse.  People do not like it in the DCU, they did not like it in Star Trek, they do not like it here.

[Bosco685]

[Juno Beach]

On 2/19/2023 at 5:06 AM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

That said, without spoiling anything, it was very strange (and very noticeable) how Kang's power level varied so widely to suit the plot.  When he needed to be invincible, he was -- the slightest wave of his hand could render the heroes completely helpless, and the blasts from his suit were literally vaporizing anything they hit.  And then suddenly, when he needed to be beatable, he was -- his blasts knocking the heroes down but causing no real damage, and just standing there doing nothing for long periods while the cavalry showed up.  There was also no explanation of exactly why he sometimes activates the blue "mask" part of his costume, and what that supposedly does for him.

 

Kang for me is the worst villain possible. He's impossible to truly defeat since there's unlimited versions of him. Defeat one, but wait, here's Kang from one second earlier! With his access to any technology from any time he's the ultimate Deux Ex Machina character. Time travelers suck.