Motor City Comics makes a sincere effort re: compensation

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

This thread is the result of an email discussion I had recently with Michael Goldman of Motor City Comics. His concern was over my initial comment regarding a sale at SD Con a while back:

 

PS: I will not be buying from Motor City. I got stung with a book by them before. Buh-bye repeat business, losers!

 

We went back and forth about legitimacy/fairness/reputation etc, and he offered me a 20% break on a future purchase (up to a $500 sale). A fair and agreeable gesture to me. He made a deliberate effort to protect his company's rep/image; I admire that and will give him a second chance.

 

In our emails, I promised to post our talk here on the forum. But though I kept everything said (and in context), the totality of our conversation is a bit voluminous, to say the least. So...

 

Rick

 

[PovertyRow]

List everything; I have no life and therefore lots of time for reading!

 

I chose this one. Am a fast reader!

[greggy]

List everything especially the part when he called you an insufficiently_thoughtful_person who's not worthy of his DCs!

[Illiterati-migration]

I had dealings with them this last weekend... I'll share if you do! I will say that they had PILES of AMAZING books... but that's all I'll say for now.

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

Dang! I'm gone for 5 minutes and already the push is on. The voting will last until I decide to snooze. Then if it's a go for the mail, I'll post before I rest my peepers so you'll all have something to look forward to in the 'morn.

 

Rick

[greggy]

Full disclosure man!

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

Calling me an insufficiently_thoughtful_person? No, but he did get my dander up. And I boosted his ire!

 

No flaming, just an argument that eventually got resolved.

 

And by the way, if I'm an insufficiently_thoughtful_person...then you're an insufficiently_thoughtful_person's insufficiently_thoughtful_person, greggy!!

So there. Ya big galloot!

 

Rick

[greggy]

Awww Rick couldn't afford a book and whined about it!

 

A la Crusty: "Oh yeah...JLA sucks"

[murph0]

It'd be nice if their raw book pricing wasn't so close to what the CGC version goes for :\

but I guess with that 20 percent off, that might make it doable

 

Brian

[JLA_ALL_THE_WAY]

OK here it is. Enjoy:

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Motor City Comics Inc.

To: rkent02@lvcm.com

Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 2:48 PM

Subject: Your posting on CGC forum

 

 

Hi Rick,

 

PS: I will not be buying from Motor City. I got stung with a book by them before. Buh-bye repeat business, losers!

So you were "stung" by me for a book. Maybe you should speak with me about that and be sure that you have your facts straight before you slander my name in a public forum? What was this alleged book? When did you buy it from me? Is it the JLA 3 that you claim MAY have been purchased from me or Metropolis around 1985-88 but you can't remember for sure? As you said in your 2/27/03 post below.

 

Thanx all for the kudos. Picked 'em all up in SD from '85--'88 while every one else was going ga-ga for Spidey, Bats, and those oh so precious indies.

Don't remember about the other two, but I know I got the #3 from either Metropolis or Motor City. The seller mentioned nothing about restoration, so needless to say I was disappointed when CGC broke the news. Any one know which of the two sellers is most likely to sell this way?

I started in the comic business in 1986 and set up in San Diego for the first time in 1987 or 1988. I had only begun buying/selling gold and silver age in early 1987 (outside of my experience as a collector from 1974-1981) and may not have been aware or knowledgeable enough at that time to detect the restoration and there was no CGC or equivalent at that time. I freely admit that if you purchased a comic from me prior to 1990 that I may have missed restoration. It has taken years for my skill and knowledge to get to the point where I'm confident that I detect 99.9% of restoration.

I have NEVER sold a comics as unrestored that I knew to be restored. I have even taken returns as long as 2 years after the sale of a comic because of undetected restoration (I sold it about a year before CGC started). It happens to the best of us you know. I've graded and priced over 10,000 gold and silver age comics already since 1/1/03. It stands to reason that with the quantity of comics that I grade and sell that I will miss something occasionally. I sell a lot of comic books and my reputation is worth way more than the few bucks that I might make by trying to deceive people on restoration. Take a look at my current and recent ebay auctions and you'll see that I have been selling a large collection of restored comics and disclosing the restoration to the best of my ability. I even had a JLA #3 with some color touch up in the past couple months. I'm not denying that you may have purchased the JLA #3 from me, but come on, that was 15 years ago. Did that justify the insult and slander in a public forum?

Also try doing a search in the CGC forums on "Motor City" and you'll see that while some may complain about my prices the only comments you'll see about my grading are positive ones. Look at my feedback too. Many comments think that I undergrade. As for all the whiners about price "If you don't like the price don't buy it!" but please stop whining about how the big bad dealer won't sell you that comic you wanted for the price that YOU think is fair.

I'll even offer to buy back the JLA #3 for the price you paid PLUS 30% PLUS the slabbing fee. 15 years after I might have sold it to you.

Just thought i'd try to respond to your insulting and childish post. I'm quite curious to see your response.

Sincerely,

Michael Goldman

Owner

Motor City Comics Inc.

(248)426-8059

P.S.-Please feel free to post this message on the CGC board but only in it's complete form.

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hey Goldy,

 

You coulda saved yourself a lot of hot air in your email (which I will IN FACT post on CGC -in it's entirety-when I have the time). The book in question is not the #3 but a #19 that was nm-mint...except for a cut-out coupon. I have since unloaded it on ebay "with full disclosure" for an 80%+ loss.

 

I'll go into further detail on CGC, then you can...what? Threaten me with legal action for slander? You may or may not have unwittingly sold the book under false pretense, I don't give a [!@#%^&^]! All I care about is that I had a negative experience with you which I don't wish to repeat.

 

Too bad I still don't have the book, then I could have tested your big-hearted gesture of a refund. And try to get YOUR facts straight before whining to me. Don't just assume it was the #3.

 

OH and, by the by, $120 + $36(30%) + $20 = $176

 

$176 for the highest graded JLA #3 (9.0)? I've had offers of more than twice that amount. So much for your grand gesture...

 

"Just thought i'd try to respond to your insulting and childish post."

Yea, you tried. Didn't succeed, though.

 

See ya on the Forum:)

 

Rick

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Hi Rick,

I guess I should have anticipated that you would send such a reply and in fact I do owe you an apology for not contacting you to ask the specifics of what happened before I sent you that message. I'm sorry. It's so easy to get angry and off on the wrong foot with email and forum posts. I guess because they are so anonymous.

You know that you could have contacted me and I would have taken a full return on the JLA 19 even years later. In fact I will still offer you a credit towards merchandise if I can verify when/where you purchased the comic. Was it mail order or at a con? If you can give me the con date or mail order date then I can verify the sale and amount and I will give you a credit for the FULL PURCHASE PRICE of the comic. Will that show you that I stand behind everything that I sell, no matter when it was purchased?

BTW, was that a Northland copy. I have come to discover that there were 1/3 page clips from some silver age DC's in that collection that I did miss. This book would be about the right time period.

Get back to me if you want and I will make good on the JLA 19. Or you can just stay angry. Your choice.

Sincerely,

Michael Goldman

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Michael,

 

"Or you can just stay angry. Your choice."

 

Your crass after-thought comments make it difficult to even want to communicate with you; much less want to allow you to make things right.

 

I was the customer. I am angry, and justifyably so. You seem to have trouble understanding this.

 

 

Verify the sale? The only info I can offer is between 1988-1993 at the SD Con; the book was graded NM-Mint & cost me $110. No pedigree. How many Nm-Mint JLA #19's have you sold?

 

Your offer sounds sincere, but at the same time you're putting the onus of responsibility on me. How can one prove a sale at a convention. I paid cash... there was no receipt... and even if there was I would have thrown it out long ago... I've resold the book...

 

The deal is over. Would have been nice to get a refund. Even better to have a NM-Mint JLA #19. But I can't PROVE I bought it from you. I just know that I did. So all we're left with is words. I can understand and even appreciate your attempt to maintain a positive rep with the public (especially the CGC forum). But can you understand my anger/frustration/sense of helplessness with a deal gone bad??

 

Respectfully,

Rick

 

PS: I still plan on showing this on the Comic Forum. I'm fair enough to let others decide for themselves what kind of dealer you are. But I don't start a thread unless I have the time to respond to other's replies. And this weekend, time is one thing I don't have enough of.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Hi Rick,

First off, my final line was not an attempt by, any means, to be crass. I'm sorry that you took it that way. That email was a sincere attempt to make the situation right. I meant it to mean that you could just stay mad at me or we could communicate like rational people and fix the problem.(Please don't take that to mean that I think your responses are irrational).

Of course I understand that you are angry. I would be too. That's why I apologized for the unjustified email that I sent to you(and assuming that it was the JLA 3 from your other posts) and am trying to make the situation right. But I would contact the person that I was angry with before I would leave the comments that you did in a public forum. You could have rid yourself of the "anger/frustration/sense of helplessness with a deal gone bad" much sooner if you had contacted me directly as soon as you discovered the problem.

Now as far as proving that you bought the book. Can you narrow it down any further. I have all of my San Diego sales records back to 1987 or 88 when I first started doing the con. You've told me that you paid $110 for it, that's the first step. I can reasonably assume that if I find a record of sale for JLA 19 for $110 in San Diego in one of those years that you did buy it from me. No one else would know the details to that extent. It's unlikely that I would have sold more than one in that grade/price during that time period. If you could narrow down the year any further then it would mean less boxes of old records for me to open up and search. I'm not putting the "burden of proof" on you I just need as much information as possible in order to research the sale. We do have more than words because I have records.

Unfortunately because you do not have the comic and because of the length of time involved I can't/won't offer you a "cash" refund but I will give you a credit toward any merchandise (comic or other) that I have for sale on Ebay, my catalog or website. I just need to verify that the sale actually happened. Which I can do because I have kept all of my convention and mail order sales records back to 1987 when I first started making a catalog. At that time I started recording all grades and prices of con sales so that I could be sure my inventory was kept accurate.

BTW, words are pretty powerful. Look how angry a few words made both of us. Get back to me if you can narrow down the year and I'll get the boxes of records pulled down on Monday(They are stacked deep on top of 14 foot shelves) and start looking for the record of that sale.

Sincerely,

Michael

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Michael,

 

I commend you on your extensive record keeping; not many in the comic world even bother to retain records of past sales. Most are done in cash & usually the only concern is whether or not to re-stock that specific issue. That is why I didn't bother to contact you previously. You should highlight this "return policy" of yours; it's a great selling point that is not adopted by most sellers.

 

Unfortunately, I cannot narrow it down more than 88-93. I went every year from 85-95 and can't distinguish the middle years. Before 1988, I could not afford to spend $100+ on just one comic. And after '93, my interests went elsewhere and eventually I stopped going to SD until last year.

 

As for the credit, why bother? If you believed me, that would be enough, correct? If you can't find the record of the sale, that may satisfy your doubts- but I still know I puchased from Motor City. I can still remember talking to myself as I approached your set-up: "Motor City! Vroom Vroom...makin' a pit stop in "DETROIT" (a la Huey Lewis & the News' Heart of Rock n Roll)." Plus, do you think I'd bother jerking you around for that amount of money now? Check my comments on the Forum and you'll see sporadic references to 'the new house I just bought.'

 

If you think I dissed your company hoping to get something for free, remember you emailed me first and offered a return. I know you don't want to offer something based just on their word- that would be stupid- but why would I lie? Besides, you think my comment will cause more than $110 worth of damage to your biz in the long run?

 

I give you points for the business ethics you're displaying now, and I certainly don't hold you to any kind of offer you've made. If anything, when I post these emails on CGC, it should add credibility to your rep.

 

But I'm positive I got the JLA #19 from Motor City Comics.

 

Rick

----------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Hi Rick,

Sorry I haven't been able to get back to you sooner. It's been a crazy week.

I'll tell you what I'd like to do. Since you aren't looking for a credit and I really don't want to have to dig through all those boxes, I'll offer you this: A 20% discount on any item(s) I sell up to a $500 value. Anytime you choose to use it. Since you don't know me well I'll just say that I don't discount much. I'm not as bad as some "the price is the price" dealers but I have never been known for being an easy/big discounter (not counting all the low-mid grade stuff I sell on Ebay).

Rick, I Hope that we can put our bad start behind us and start fresh from here. I just want you to know that I really do value my reputation for being fair and honest more than anything. I believe that it is my most valuable business asset and I stand behind everything that I sell even years later.

I'm off to Kansas City For a Con today. I hope to hear back from you when I get back next week.

Best,

Michael

----------------------------------------------------

 

Michael,

 

I appreciate your offer and may take you up on it some day. $500? That won't happen unless you come across some high grade JLAs 1-50...? How was KC; worthwhile I hope.

 

Thanx, Rick

----------------------------------------------------

 

Michael

 

As promised, I have posted this in the CGC forum.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=comicgen&Number=136319&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1#Post136343

 

Rick

 

Whew!

[notch_top]

I must have missed the original thread on this....

 

 

But from what I have read , Motor City is one helluva dealer.

 

I think you come across as very hostile and childish towards an honest dealer trying to take care of you over a book purchased 15 years ago! I find Michael's e-mails very professional and courteous in response to your insulting and derrogatory remarks tainted with slander. Gradually tapering down your threats and insults as a "settlement" is agreed.

 

Did you ever contact them prior to openly slandering them on a public forum with your concerns?

 

If not this is appalling.....

 

 

I am basing this solely on what I have read in this thread and have no prior knowledge of this transaction .

[Darthdiesel]

Seeing that you two are now in love, you could have just posted this under the Qualified for Marriage thread in the "grading and resto" forum.

 

sorry to reply to greggy - meant comment for Rick although you coud sub greggy in there just as easily!

[sborock]

Rick-

I have known Michael for years and he is one of the most honest dealers in the country. Michael truly loves this hobby, it is one of the reasons he gets so much repeat business. Give him a second chance, it will be worth it.

[LucyBop]

I've had good luck with Motor City...... He has sold me some nice Golden Age comics...

[delekkerste]

I think you come across as very hostile and childish towards an honest dealer trying to take care of you over a book purchased 15 years ago! I find Michael's e-mails very professional and courteous in response to your insulting and derrogatory remarks tainted with slander.

 

I'm going to have to agree with Notch_Top here, Rick. Between this episode and the one where you threatened to neg the guy with the "Nice" condition description, I'm seeing a very disturbing pattern emerging here.

 

In both cases, your premise appears to be that the customer is always right, even if he is acting highly irrational. Let me get this straight: you want a refund on a purchase that MAY have occurred 15 years ago WITHOUT any proof of purchase? For an unmemorable $110 item? It's doubtful that IF you indeed purchased the book from MCC that they knew it was qualified - they may be pricey, but they do have a solid rep as a dealer. I also can't blame them if they don't remember the book - it's not like we're talking about a NM/M JLA #1 here - they've sold thousands of books over the years - why should they remember a measly $110 sale from the 1980s? Surely the statute of limitations, figuratively speaking, has passed on this one in any case.

 

I think MCC was very understanding, and you were totally off-base for flying off the handle for the "Or you can stay angry" comment. I think they were more than patient with you, writing long, polite, detailed responses to what I feel is a very unjustified complaint. This is a case that you could never win in court. If I was MCC, I would not have even offered you any recompense - it would set a very bad precedent to legitimize trivialities like this.

 

Gene

[Zonker]

Rick-JLA,

 

What Gene said.

 

I believe you're one of the good guys, and posting the entire thread warts & all is testimony to that fact. But Rick, please re-think your attitude towards problem-solving with your sellers!

 

Not trying to be offensive here. At its best, this forum is a community of people who are working together to set the norms for how we as collectors/dealers/etc. want to work together. The vigilante eBay canine patrol is part of that, and so is(respectfully-intended) public feedback like this.

 

And my already-positive impression of Motor City has gone up even further.

 

Sincerely,

Z.

 

[CosmicBob]

Motor City does seem like a a nice dealer. I talked to them briefly when they were here for a con. They had an Action #1 CGC and he showed it to me.

 

While they do seem to be nice guys, the prices are far too high for me to buy anything. But they are in business to make money and good for them!

[drbanner]

I always look forward to Motor City coming down to NC to Heroes Con - great selection, accurate grading, although somewhat "aggressive" pricing.

 

I remember about 10 years ago I was looking for a Hulk 1 and as I approached their booth, I noticed a stack of Hulks on their shelf - the top one being a nice #1! I asked if I could take a look at "....the Hulk 1." and they said "Which one?", and handed me a stack of 'em! They probably had at least 5 or 6 copies! I also purchased several of their NM-, NM, NM+ Northland copies raw, which I ended up slabbing, and many came back as the highest known grades. Good stuff!

[dam60]

I have to also say that I have had very positive experiences with Motor City and hope to continue to do business in the future.

 

Mike's offer to give you essentially your purchase price back in credit is overly generous especially since you offer no solid sale date and the purchase was a minimum of 10 years ago.

 

DAM

 

 

[Illiterati-migration]

great selection, accurate grading, although somewhat "aggressive" pricing.

 

 

And how!

 

And that Michael guy (if he was the gent that I talked to), was awfully nice at the show last weekend... they had SEVERAL very choice books that I wanted, unfortunately, there was a guy who had the same stuff I was looking for but at half-price. Tough to compete with that. But hey, one of MC's people offered to come down $2 on a $35 book... it's the thought that counts.