pemart1966 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 1 hour ago, James J Johnson said: The signature speaks for itself here. If it was signed on a toaster, with a paint marker, it's still Kirby's vibe. See enough of the real deal and your sensitivity to Kirby's signature becomes highly attuned for authenticity. no exemplars necessary for comparison. It's the difference between a general authenticator and a specialist. A Kirby signature arrives at a company that accepts tens of thousands of different signer's autographs for evaluation and unless it's blatantly horrific, a total joke, the first thing they do is start pulling up their exemplar file and making comparisons. This is not the ideal way to authenticate, having it done by a "jack of all trades" with a file of exemplars. You send a particular signer's autograph to the appropriate specialist, an autograph guy like Frank Caiazzo, who only authenticates Beatles autographs, and in most cases, he knows instantly, without the need for reference. You get a LOA from Frank on a Beatles autograph and that's gospel. That trumps any opinions of PSA, JSA, or anyone else. I can tell you with all assurance that what this is signed on has nothing to do with its authenticity. It's authentic because the signature speaks for itself. It's Kirby's vibe. "Because the signature speaks for itself" doesn't make it real in this case or any other for that matter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 1 minute ago, pemart1966 said: "Because the signature speaks for itself" doesn't make it real in this case or any other for that matter... It's Kirby's signature. Not only is it a classic, textbook example, but the vibe is right. If duplicated, even almost precisely, it would lack the vibe. Something, an element would change, as in all forgeries that are copied, thus drawn and not freely written by the same hand that has written that signature tens of thousands of times. As far as I'm concerned, it speaks for itself as authentic. That is my opinion and you can agree or disagree as your option. Why do you think it's fake? Can you point to any specifics that you can identify as ingenuine? Ozonetv 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, pemart1966 said: "Because the signature speaks for itself" doesn't make it real in this case or any other for that matter... All signature identification is second hand, BTW. Even when authenticated, by an expert, by an authentication company, that is an opinion and nothing more.\ You know what's more than just here say? An educated opinion, when it comes to the absolute, unquestionable authentication of an autograph? A witness. Like CGC's signature series. That is not an opinion. That's the same as a notary. Within the slab, not only does the signature speak for itself, but CGC's witness does as well. The second best measure of absolute authenticity are signed official documents. A license. A bank check. A contract. But the autograph hobby has taught us that even these can be faked. The document itself can be a copy or mock up and the signature may be stamped! So the only true authentication of signatures we have in our hobby is CGC's yellow series, witnessed signatures, by a CGC rep! Everything else other than that is merely an opinion, yours, mine, and everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozonetv Posted December 22, 2019 Author Share Posted December 22, 2019 Heres another one to look at...I ended up returning this because it was incomplete, and one authenticator came back positive, the other negative...but personally I still think its the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozonetv Posted December 22, 2019 Author Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, pemart1966 said: It could very well be BUT Roz was proficient at aping Jack's signature. I wouldn't pay extra for this. Oddly enough, the seller didn't charge extra for it because it wasn't authenticated. He had it for many years, but didn't know anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehumantorch Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 4 hours ago, James J Johnson said: HumanTorch knows Kirby signatures too. He stated this one is good and I completely agree. No question about it. Everything is proper. Nice piece of hobby history, FF 10 + Kirby sig = I'm not a signature expert but I've seen a fair number of Kirby sigs and I have a few in my collection. I just know it's real and I'd buy that book in a heartbeat with zero fear that it's forged. It's likely an older signature as that was the norm back in the day. ADAMANTIUM, The Lions Den and James J Johnson 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, pemart1966 said: It could very well be BUT Roz was proficient at aping Jack's signature. I wouldn't pay extra for this. This isn't by Roz's hand. Roz had a very distinguishable and particular "Jack"-proxy signature of her own that can be readily identified. Just study the ltd. edition of 2500 Dynamic Forces "Kirby" signed pieces and you'll see it. This FF 10 was signed by Jack at a time long before he needed a proxy to do his secretarial signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 33 minutes ago, Ozonetv said: Heres another one to look at...I ended up returning this because it was incomplete, and one authenticator came back positive, the other negative...but personally I still think its the real deal. This is good. Of course, it is possible that an authenticator would not pass it because they felt their opinion was inconclusive. An authenticator can opt for three different findings: 1) Authentic 2) Unable to render an opinion 3) Not authentic. I suspect that the reason a professional would not authenticate this was the second reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 33 minutes ago, Ozonetv said: Oddly enough, the seller didn't charge extra for it because it wasn't authenticated. He had it for many years, but didn't know anything about it. My guess would be that he had the book from a time prior to Jack's illness that would have curtailed his signing stamina and made secretarial assistance necessary (Roz). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozonetv Posted December 22, 2019 Author Share Posted December 22, 2019 26 minutes ago, James J Johnson said: This isn't by Roz's hand. Roz had a very distinguishable and particular "Jack"-proxy signature of her own that can be readily identified. Just study the ltd. edition of 2500 Dynamic Forces "Kirby" signed pieces and you'll see it. This FF 10 was signed by Jack at a time long before he needed a proxy to do his secretarial signing. Id like to see a Roz sig...do you have any samples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eee91 Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, Ozonetv said: Id like to see a Roz sig...do you have any samples? I posted a few suspected Roz samples in an older thread here. The examples you've posted don't look like them at all- Ozonetv and ADAMANTIUM 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozonetv Posted December 22, 2019 Author Share Posted December 22, 2019 So now we've established this has a very good shot at being legit, what company would be best to get a COA from? JSA? Any other options? ADAMANTIUM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pemart1966 Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, James J Johnson said: It's Kirby's signature. Not only is it a classic, textbook example, but the vibe is right. If duplicated, even almost precisely, it would lack the vibe. Something, an element would change, as in all forgeries that are copied, thus drawn and not freely written by the same hand that has written that signature tens of thousands of times. As far as I'm concerned, it speaks for itself as authentic. That is my opinion and you can agree or disagree as your option. Why do you think it's fake? Can you point to any specifics that you can identify as ingenuine? Read my posts. I never said that this was "fake". What I did say was that there was a lot of monkey business with Roz (and maybe others I don't know about) signing Jack's name on stuff. That means that every Kirby signature that can't be authenticated has to be questioned. Edited December 22, 2019 by pemart1966 ADAMANTIUM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pemart1966 Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 4 hours ago, James J Johnson said: All signature identification is second hand, BTW. Even when authenticated, by an expert, by an authentication company, that is an opinion and nothing more.\ You know what's more than just here say? An educated opinion, when it comes to the absolute, unquestionable authentication of an autograph? A witness. Like CGC's signature series. That is not an opinion. That's the same as a notary. Within the slab, not only does the signature speak for itself, but CGC's witness does as well. The second best measure of absolute authenticity are signed official documents. A license. A bank check. A contract. But the autograph hobby has taught us that even these can be faked. The document itself can be a copy or mock up and the signature may be stamped! So the only true authentication of signatures we have in our hobby is CGC's yellow series, witnessed signatures, by a CGC rep! Everything else other than that is merely an opinion, yours, mine, and everyone else. Thank you! My opinion is, and you have backed me up, is that there is no way to tell if it's real or not - and as such, it's all a matter of opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 55 minutes ago, pemart1966 said: Read my posts. I never said that this was "fake". What I did say was that there was a lot of monkey business with Roz (and maybe others I don't know about) signing Jack's name on stuff. That means that every Kirby signature that can't be authenticated has to be questioned. That depends on perspective. And from the reference point of my perspective + my knowledge of the distinct differences in the characteristics of Jack's and Roz's handwriting, and familiarity with Roz's proxy track vs. Jack's, I have no questions at all about it and are sure of what it is, a genuine Jack Kirby written signature, in my opinion. It's not even a thing I would have to think about. I looked at this and immediately knew it was Jack's, it's not even a close call warranting the typical exemplar needed examples that so many autograph experts who are jacks of all trade must review before rendering a call. I look at it and think, "That's Jack", probably the same way a doctor could feel a fractured bone and say, "That's broken".. In other words, were I to be offered this piece and a selling point was the signature, I would not need to seek expert opinion. I would be confident in my own opinion on the authenticity. No question here for me based on my experience as an autograph collector and long-time student of handwriting analysis. The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James J Johnson Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, pemart1966 said: Thank you! My opinion is, and you have backed me up, is that there is no way to tell if it's real or not - and as such, it's all a matter of opinion. This is true. It's actually a matter of faith as well! Faith in a seller. Faith in the opinion. Faith in the expertise of that opinion's source! Which is what makes CGC's signature series books, which are witnessed, the only sure thing in this hobby when it comes to autographed comics. Even if an expert is right 999 times out of 1000, which would be an incredibly optimistic hope, CGC rep witnessed yellow label signatures are 1000 out of 1000 for each and every 1000! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jokiing Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 Recently dig this out of a box and got it behind mylar. I know it's 100% legit. Got this from the man himself at the 1974 New York Comic Convention... 11x14 Meeting and getting signatures and sketches was free and easy back then. I have pics somewhere from this convention with a few artists and a great pic from the costume contest of Vampirella (not for the faint of heart) ADAMANTIUM, eee91 and austinhg 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADAMANTIUM Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 8 minutes ago, jokiing said: Recently dig this out of a box and got it behind mylar. I know it's 100% legit. Got this from the man himself at the 1974 New York Comic Convention... 11x14 Meeting and getting signatures and sketches was free and easy back then. I have pics somewhere from this convention with a few artists and a great pic from the costume contest of Vampirella (not for the faint of heart) That Is Sawheet! awesome! The Experience? Priceless!! Thanks for sharing! jokiing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernovaa30 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 What do you guys think of this one? I picked it up a few years ago and would be good to get some opinions on its authenticity... James J Johnson and eee91 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eee91 Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Supernovaa30 said: What do you guys think of this one? I picked it up a few years ago and would be good to get some opinions on its authenticity... Looks legit to me. Congrats! Edited January 29, 2020 by eee91 thehumantorch and James J Johnson 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
