Silver Surfer 4 CGC 9.8 white

[Scrooge]

first off , CGC would never take part in any experiment that could and probably would demonstrate ANY inconsistency in their grading.

 

Nor should they. We are just speculating what the results would be. Optimistic as I tend to be, I would like to believe that inconsistencies as Tim mentioned would be limited.

 

The other aspect of the 9.6 vs 9.8 issue is even if I were convinced graders could repeatedly and consistently pick out the "9.8" from a table of 9.6s, Its STILL wouldnt make me a buyer of 9.8s because the price differences bear no relation IMO to the difference in condition between them. They are just too close and all too nearly perfect for me to ever want to pay for the "9.8"

 

Agreed. You are going back to the spirit of the thread here IIRC in that $7K for a 9.8 is a lot when a virtually similar-looking 9.6 that on top could have better QP would go for fraction of that price. I am really befuddled at the multiples attained between the high grades but as mentioned above I would believe that CGC does indeed a good job in seperating the top grades and therefore when paying a higher price for a higher grade, you receive a product of higher "quality" as perceived by Steve and the boys to whom a large part of the market has given the authority to decree so by the general acceptance of CGC as an authoritative grading granting agency.

[Aman619]

right. and going back to the SS4, well, I MIGHT get behind owning the only 9.8, but one of 5? That wpuld sober me up is I ever got 9.8 fever on a book just as 15-20 9.4s does. Id rather pay a good old fashioned normal Guide or double guide for a 9.0 thats top of census than the one 9.8 at 12x guide. The BEST is always the BEST, regardless of number grade.

[Aces]

Boy, I'm a trouble maker for starting this thread.

[Silver Surfer]

Have to say this again, the book rocks. I just spent the last two minutes in a daze drooling over it.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Boy, I'm a trouble maker for starting this thread.

 

You're a trouble maker in general.

[whomerjay]

Have to say this again, the book rocks. I just spent the last two minutes in a daze drooling over it.

You are so right and perhaps this the wrong book around which to have this 9.6 vs. 9.8 argument. DAMN hard to find without spine stress. And spine stress on this book is magnified by the colors. Sickens me, like having a big bird poop on your candy red otherwise mint '75 Vette convertible.

 

To many, the first book that comes to mind when asked about classic cover art.

 

Owning the best copy of such a book? Big premium should be attached.

 

.

[THE_BEYONDER]

9.6 vs. 9.8

 

 

 

Seems pretty obvious to me....

[drbanner]

Seems pretty obvious to me....

 

Whoa! Looks like two scans of two books scanned in the slab as viewed over the internet proves that there really is no difference between 9.6's and 9.8's!

 

(Like my use of bolds and italics? JK...)

[THE_BEYONDER]

Seems pretty obvious to me....

 

Whoa! Looks like two scans of two books scanned in the slab as viewed over the internet proves that there really is no difference between 9.6's and 9.8's!

 

(Like my use of bolds and italics? JK...)

 

You can't tell which is which?

[drbanner]

Seems pretty obvious to me....

 

Whoa! Looks like two scans of two books scanned in the slab as viewed over the internet proves that there really is no difference between 9.6's and 9.8's!

 

(Like my use of bolds and italics? JK...)

 

You can't tell which is which?

 

Sure I can...please send them to me raw and I'll get back to you asap, but make sure you identify which is which so we'll know how well the experiment works!

[THE_BEYONDER]

Remember the PPSS 25 & 26 you sold me a while back? Here's your grades:

 

25 NM

26 NM+

 

The 26 came back 9.6, and here's the 25

 

 

Tell me more about CGC 9.8s...

[adamstrange]

right. and going back to the SS4, well, I MIGHT get behind owning the only 9.8, but one of 5? That wpuld sober me up is I ever got 9.8 fever on a book just as 15-20 9.4s does. Id rather pay a good old fashioned normal Guide or double guide for a 9.0 thats top of census than the one 9.8 at 12x guide. The BEST is always the BEST, regardless of number grade.

 

As much as I love the issue, and I did use to own a very nice copy, and as nice as I'm sure the copy in this thread is, I can't see me shelling out the bucks for it either due to how common it is in uber-high grade. That said, it's been my experience that I see more super high grade copies since the advent of CGC. Prior to that, they were around, but since no one could get a premium for them (talking about SA & BA), they either seldom sold or were sold quickly as the quality was recognized as being "above the norm." You see more of them hanging around because of the internet and because the higher price discourages all but the true believer, who are much fewer in number.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

and those results would jive with what CGC graded them at

 

I'm afraid I own all the rights and subsequent royalties from the use of the word "jive" on the Forum Boards. Please pay your infractional penalty by Paypaling $25.00 to JiveTurkeysRetirementFund@aol.com. Thank you for your cooperation.

[adamstrange]

One would be right in saying that the hobby has given into a CGC's grading "solution."

 

Wouldn't that mean that a 9.4 with better QP and PQ would sell and be valued the same in the marketplace. I don't think that's the case. If you added the word "substantially" to your sentence then I would think it would be more accurate.

 

In our situation, grading on the high end which is a complex problem, heuristics (or rule-of-thumbs) solutions will work better.

 

Grading to me is more like answering an essay question that solving a mathematics problem. While I did well in math, I learned over time that I preferred essay questions.

 

Thanks for the tip on the word heuristics -- I've not used it in years. I can use it now at work where I've got some bozo's believing that tossing imaginary numbers into a spreadsheet set up with complex algorithms will yield a better business decision than heuristics.

 

SHead's experiment would show that, indeed, people with a lot of experience in the hobby will tend to agree on which copy is best and reinforce the adequacy of the current system. I am glad that both Adam and Tim chimed in to state that long-time dealer / collector have developed that ability to discern best copies among better copies. It is to no end amazing to me how certain members of the board (Timely, RHG, Adam, Moondog, ...) can come on the board and state: "Oh yeah, this is a gorgeous book but the San Francisco is better looking with crisper color and blinding gloss." These guys have perfect copy recall coming from years of looking at books. This is what Steve B., Timely and other graders bring to the table under CGC's business model and overall are doing a great job at putting into practice in order to ascertain grades.

 

The key to recall has to be partly genetic, but quite a bit comes from "years of looking at books." Mastering anything is about pattern recognition and require 8 - 12 years to acquire. The folks you cite are all at the upper end of the that range (or beyond) in looking at the best copies. I know when I first started getting into high-end pedigrees, I had to stress my brain and eyes to recognize page quality, color, and gloss. I do it much more quickly now with much less effort.

 

To be fair to October, who, as I recall seems to collect mostly BA, there are vastly greater numbers of top books (and books close to top books) than there are in the earlier time periods. There are no early SA or 50s or GA parallels to the quantities of CGC copies of SS4 that I'm aware of. Prior to that, only the Gaines copies push up the census figures on the 9.6, 9.8, 9.9.

[adamstrange]

From SHead

 

2) Line up Doug, Steve B., Brulato, or some such similar line-up (Obviously if Steve B is playing our game, you'd want to have books lined up that he's never seen before, if we could swing that). Have them grade the books, though we make sure each one is grading without the other two guys around, so that they aren't influenced by another's decisions.

 

3) Have our graders turn their backs while we play 3-card monty with the books and switch 'em around. Have them grade the books again.

 

4) One more back-turn, and more grade-off. Three times a charm, now we compare notes. Who picked the same books each time? Who picked the books the same as CGC? How different was one dude's picks from another's?

 

Depending on the books and defects this would probably not work as you would like. If there is some characteristic on each book that makes it identifiable (almost certain to be true) and these folks know they are in a testing environment, the test won't work. They'll just assign the book with the tiny tear the same grade each time.

 

If, on the other hand, they are grading hundreds of comics a week and you slip the three books in surreptitiously, repeatedly, then you might be able to come to a valid conclusion. (This is kinda like re-submissions.) Also, I would point out that just because I believe there is a noticeable difference between 9.6 and 9.8, it doesn't mean that I believe everyone in the hobby adheres to the same standard for what those grades mean. I think in general that there is more agreement about the definition of the higher grades simply because fewer defects are allowed. Much of the variation in grading goes back to differences in the value of defects (spine stress vs. tear vs. stain etc). Reduce the defects allowed and you'll reduce some of that variability.

[Scrooge]

One would be right in saying that the hobby has given into a CGC's grading "solution."

 

Wouldn't that mean that a 9.4 with better QP and PQ would sell and be valued the same in the marketplace. I don't think that's the case. If you added the word "substantially" to your sentence then I would think it would be more accurate.

 

When I was typing that statement, I was concentrating mostly on the Number Grade specifically. While it is true that the Number Grade is influenced by QP and PQ to a certain extent, I did not preclude what you are saying to occur. There is a finer level of grades and therefore prices in the market once you add these elements and they are reflected in sales. Much in the same way that not all BB rated bonds are similar and credit spreads will vary across issues.

 

In our situation, grading on the high end which is a complex problem, heuristics (or rule-of-thumbs) solutions will work better.

 

Grading to me is more like answering an essay question that solving a mathematics problem. While I did well in math, I learned over time that I preferred essay questions.

 

Well, my forte is to apply simple solutions to simple problems. I always did well in math and rather weakly on essays. This is why I feel I could not do this high end grading with any degree of reliability. This task is obviously not as easy as some would like to portray it.

 

SHead's experiment would show that, indeed, people with a lot of experience in the hobby will tend to agree on which copy is best and reinforce the adequacy of the current system. I am glad that both Adam and Tim chimed in to state that long-time dealer / collector have developed that ability to discern best copies among better copies. It is to no end amazing to me how certain members of the board (Timely, RHG, Adam, Moondog, ...) can come on the board and state: "Oh yeah, this is a gorgeous book but the San Francisco is better looking with crisper color and blinding gloss." These guys have perfect copy recall coming from years of looking at books. This is what Steve B., Timely and other graders bring to the table under CGC's business model and overall are doing a great job at putting into practice in order to ascertain grades.

 

The key to recall has to be partly genetic, but quite a bit comes from "years of looking at books." Mastering anything is about pattern recognition and require 8 - 12 years to acquire. The folks you cite are all at the upper end of the that range (or beyond) in looking at the best copies. I know when I first started getting into high-end pedigrees, I had to stress my brain and eyes to recognize page quality, color, and gloss. I do it much more quickly now with much less effort.

 

Agreed, it takes a long time of practice to achieve that level. Actually, maybe not that many years for CGC trainee / pre-graders who look at books all day long. They are on the accelerated track.

 

To be fair to October, who, as I recall seems to collect mostly BA, there are vastly greater numbers of top books (and books close to top books) than there are in the earlier time periods. There are no early SA or 50s or GA parallels to the quantities of CGC copies of SS4 that I'm aware of. Prior to that, only the Gaines copies push up the census figures on the 9.6, 9.8, 9.9.

 

Oh I am not putting into question October's grading ability. In the last Nikos' grading contest, I was thoroughly impressed by his ability to be right on the mark or clearly only a single grade off. I thought I made it clear I know that Andy can grade. I was merely reflecting that, to my knowledge, he hasn't had those years of experience, hence his doubt that others can reliably distinguish between a 9.6 and a 9.8.

[Scrooge]

Thanks for the tip on the word heuristics -- I've not used it in years. I can use it now at work where I've got some bozo's believing that tossing imaginary numbers into a spreadsheet set up with complex algorithms will yield a better business decision than heuristics.

 

An all too common failing of the inadequately and adequately trained alike. Spreadsheets can only take you so far for more complex problems.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I was merely reflecting that, to my knowledge, he hasn't had those years of experience, hence his doubt that others can reliably distinguish between a 9.6 and a 9.8.

 

 

Of course...time constraints are also working against this experience.

[drbanner]

Tell me more about CGC 9.8s...

 

You'd probably faint if I posted the list of raw books I submitted that came back 9.8's!!

[october]

 

Th eother aspect of the 9.6 vs 9.8 issue is even if I were convinced graders could repeatedly and consistently pick out the "9.8" from a table of 9.6s, Its STILL wouldnt make me a buyer of 9.8s because the price differences bear no relation IMO to the difference in condition between them. They are just too close and all too nearly perfect for me to ever want to pay for the "9.8"

 

And this is my problem as well, though I'm probably beating a dead horse by now. It's a two-step nagging sensation for me:

 

1) There's no difference, or at least no difference that my inferior eyes can spot looking at slabs with a magnifying glass (which yes, embarassingly enough, I have done).

 

2) There is a difference, but who cares? It's so neglible that it is a "hobby-killer" for me. At this stage in the game, the only reason that I'd buy another 9.8 would be if said book was not available to me in any other shape (like it was a Gerber 9 or something). Not that I'd likely have the deep pockets for such an item, but you get the idea.

 

And if it's a hobby killer for me, somebody who sought them out at one time, how many others will eventually change their tune? That's too scary to think about; that's why I got out. My hobby shouldn't have those kinds of financial stressors attached to it. That's what I have utility bills, rent, two car payments, and my unborn children's college fund for.

 

Ok, nite nite for real.

 

I will just agree with this post (just as it agrees with one of my own) and call it a day. As usual, people will come to their own conclusions about CGC, slabs and the high grade game. I, for one, obviously don't agree with the sometimes arbitrary distinctions handed out amongst the top grading tiers. Setting aside golden age (which is a different animal altogether), high grade bronze and modern slabs just smack of being manufactured collectibles. I guess I have a built-in aversion to that sort of thing.