The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 16 16

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/5/2022 at 8:26 PM, Malacoda said:

Mikes  + Marvel Fandom.  Go Collect lists it as July 31st, but that would mean it was published 1 day ahead of the cover date. 

I was being facetious Rich. Happy Birthday Spidey!  

[Malacoda]

On 6/5/2022 at 7:57 PM, themagicrobot said:

It was rainy Whitby in a field in clear view of Dracula's Abbey.

 

 

Well, that was a bit more answer than I was ready for. Cool. I think we can reasonably say that if Fred had a list of seaside / holiday towns to send his returns to, Whitby would definitely have been on the list. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/5/2022 at 8:32 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I was being facetious Rich. Happy Birthday Spidey!  

You'd think some sort of sense would have told me that....

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/5/2022 at 8:37 PM, Malacoda said:

You'd think some sort of sense would have told me that....

My Marwood sense is tingling! Well, it would if I had any. Cents that is 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/5/2022 at 8:22 PM, themagicrobot said:

But different stamps were obviously handed out to different people as per these different 8ps.

Not a T & P stamp on the second one, I reckon.

Someone must know the Secret Origin of that particular 8p stamp.

[Malacoda]

On 6/5/2022 at 9:35 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

You could speculate that the possibility of 'bunching' - a run of issues turning up in the same shipment - might have something to do with the stamp numbering. That number one in the four images above tells someone that those four books all arrived at the same time. But that assumes that they did of course - attributing sequential stamp numbers to sequential shipments is just our collective theory in this thread. If it were the case though, for the sake of argument, what would the benefit of that knowledge be to anyone, anyway? 

I think examples from 1959/60, right when the ban first lifted might not be representative of the system as it evolved, because the system wasn't in place at all and Fred would have said give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses, longing to make me rich. We would not be surprised to see multiple months arriving together in 1959 and getting stamped together, right? But that wouldn't carry on indefinitely, just till the backlog ran out. 

Does this bunching phenomenon carry on into the 60's? And how does it sit with the opposite phenomenon I highlighted?  I guess what I am asking is....to what extend do the numbers correspond to months and to what extent to do they bunch or multi-batch (which is what I'm suddenly now calling the opposite thing). 

Is it me, or is that an absolutely mammoth question which is kind of the whole ball of wax? 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/6/2022 at 2:42 AM, Malacoda said:

Does this bunching phenomenon carry on into the 60's? And how does it sit with the opposite phenomenon I highlighted?  I guess what I am asking is....to what extend do the numbers correspond to months and to what extent to do they bunch or multi-batch (which is what I'm suddenly now calling the opposite thing). 

Let me recap on the exercise I did Rich.

I created a set of folders in which to capture the analysis:

 

 

In the folder numbered 4 above, I created folders for all the DC titles for which I could find a T&P stamped copy during what would become the first four 1-9 cycle window:

 

 

There are 1,969 images captured in those 54 folders:

 

 

So the sample is large - here is one folder's content to illustrate:

 

 

I then plotted all 1,900+ comic examples on this table:

 

As you can see, it's really hard to read now as there are so many examples added. Multiples of the same book with the same stamp are shown in brackets.

If we believe that each consecutive stamp represents one shipment, likely to be monthly, then that's around 30 months of activity tabled there (the first cycle's 1-5 stamps weren't used it seems, they came in at stamp 6. This makes sense, as the stamps were already in use for other publications (I have many examples) so the DC comics likely slotted into an existing stamping arrangement). 

If you look you'll see I have added the 'Majority Cover Dates' at the top of each number. We go from a majority of Nov '59 cover dates (the first 6 stamp) up to majority Jan '62 for the ninth stamp of the fourth cycle. So we have 31 sequential stamps straddling 27 calendar cover months. Quite close to monthly, but not exact. There are some February books in that last slot too though, which nudges 28 calendar / cover months vs what we believe are 31 sequential shipments.

As for bunching, if I zoom in on  the fourth cycle - potentially two years into the process - we still see it:

 

It does appear to me though, that the sequential numbered stamps do indeed more or less match the sequence of a monthly calendar. If so, that blows any suggestion that the 1-9 stamps represent regional / alternate stamping teams / locations, as we would not see these patterns if that were the case. The pattern is there, told to us by the comics and my painstaking plotting.

I did an exercise for a handful of DC titles and carried them on. Here is the 8th cycle, with added Marvel:

If anything, the bunching is more pronounced now. But the pattern remains calendar / cover date sequential overall. Action Comics bunch, but still are progressively escalating by issue numbers in this helicopter view. We even see a clear starting point for the price change to 10d.

I haven't updated the table for a while - I have a bunch of additional examples to add in a folder - but if we return to the purpose of my review:

Everything in this post was told to us by the comics. They were stamped to a clear and obvious sequential pattern. We can't say what the actual calendar date was against each of those plotted number groups. Look how many Action Comics turned up in stamp 4 of the eighth cycle - three consecutive issues worth. So does that mean that 3 issues went on sale in the UK, from that shipment? There are still many issues with this that do not match collector recollections.

But the pattern is there to see, and clear. The actual live dates to which they relate though, and so much else is still up in the air. 

[Get Marwood & I]

I often note that things change and assumptions for one period don't always fit another. You can see why I stopped here at the 18th cycle, for Action:

If we apply our 'stamp numbers match a sequential delivery pattern' theory here, six consecutive issues of Action turned up in the UK at the same time. The theory holds in the early cycles, but falls apart somewhat as it progresses if we match it to collector recollections. There is still a vague pattern though, even in those three slots - we start with #379, move on to #380-385, then #384-388. That's still a progressive escalation in issue numbers. But no collector recalls 6 issues of Action on sale, do they? So what were T&P doing if all those books did arrive together? And how late does that make some of them?

Incidentally, the 18th cycle would be 139 stamps from the first 6 stamp in the first cycle - around eleven years if each stamp represents a monthly shipment. Cover dates are early 1970 at this point - around eleven years after the 1959 start. Still a match!

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/5/2022 at 8:22 PM, themagicrobot said:

Paging @Get Marwood & I When did the stamping ink colour change from black to blue?

The middle of 1965, Robot. It fluctuates by title, but May-Aug seem to be the cross over months as far as I can gather. 

Batman 171/172 example below:

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/6/2022 at 8:34 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

I often note that things change and assumptions for one period don't always fit another. You can see why I stopped here at the 18th cycle, for Action:

If we apply our 'stamp numbers match a sequential delivery pattern' theory here, six consecutive issues of Action turned up in the UK at the same time. The theory holds in the early cycles, but falls apart somewhat as it progresses if we match it to collector recollections. There is still a vague pattern though, even in those three slots - we start with #379, move on to #380-385, then #384-388. That's still a progressive escalation in issue numbers. But no collector recalls 6 issues of Action on sale, do they? So what were T&P doing if all those books did arrive together? And how late does that make some of them?

Incidentally, the 18th cycle would be 139 stamps from the first 6 stamp in the first cycle - around eleven years if each stamp represents a monthly shipment. Cover dates are early 1970 at this point - around eleven years after the 1959 start. Still a match!

Here's a further thought.

If the DC comics were indeed returns, then it stands to reason that T&P would receive a mix of issue numbers, likely out of date sequence, in each shipment. The tables I put together show that clearly and it is a logical outcome of a returns process from a country the size of the USA. So T&P would need to consider how they moved those books on. Would they, say, send those six consecutive Action issues to the newsagents? Surely not. Collectors would have noted that, wouldn't they? So they would need a way of restoring the books to some sort of issue / calendar order before releasing them sequentially into the wild. A numbered stamp might help them do that....

But of course as our table above shows, there's no way that the stamp number was used to separate different dated books as they are all the same number for six consecutive issues!

So what were T&P doing? How did they manage the inevitable bunching, and how did they restore calendar order deliveries to UK outlets when they were handling and stamping millions of comics?

Or, are all our collector memories inaccurate, and the shops in those days were indeed full of out of sequence, bunched up comics?

[themagicrobot]

Is there any evidence that T & P weren't responsible for the "naked" 8p stamps for the DCs cover dated February 1974  Albert? My theory is that perhaps the price rise caught them on the hop. Comics were 7p the previous month and 6p a couple of months before that. Perhaps they had to grab what was available until they got their own custom stamps printed.

Eventually they gave Ethel and friends fresh stamperers

[themagicrobot]

Quote

Or, are all our collector memories inaccurate, and the shops in those days were indeed full of out of sequence, bunched up comics?

Certainly that is my recollection from the 1960s. I'm not even sure if there was a sale-or-return policy then, let alone stripping the racks of last months issues to make room for the new stuff (as happened with weekly UK comics like The Dandy, Valiant etc). Like rings on a tree older issues remained hidden behind newer ones. But the coloured comics were so popular with my generation in the 1960s that most things sold and didn't need to be returned. Even Alan Class comics. It was only in the 1970s that things got professional and I definitely recall that every month (or was it every 4 weeks which might alter tables slightly) the  spinner racks would be completely fresh.

Alan Class has said that he unloaded mountains of old returned issues onto Seaside resorts in the 1960s and 1970s but I've no reason to believe T & P had a similar policy. I think they still sold the same stock to Seaside resort newsagents but perhaps those shops turned the comics round quicker (at least in the Summer) and would restock the spinners more often than once a month. I certainly would purchase an excessive number of comics on holiday (being armed with extra funds). 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:27 AM, themagicrobot said:

Is there any evidence that T & P weren't responsible for the "naked" 8p stamps for the DCs cover dated February 1974?

I don't think this stamp was T&P's. I have it on a number of publishers books that they did not distribute. I haven't finished that investigation yet, but it's linked to Harvey. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:41 AM, themagicrobot said:

Quote

Or, are all our collector memories inaccurate, and the shops in those days were indeed full of out of sequence, bunched up comics?

Certainly that is my recollection from the 1960s. I'm not even sure if there was a sale-or-return policy then, let alone stripping the racks of last months issues to make room for the new stuff (as happened with weekly UK comics like The Dandy, Valiant etc). Like rings on a tree older issues remained hidden behind newer ones. But the coloured comics were so popular with my generation in the 1960s that most things sold and didn't need to be returned.

Your recollection seems to match the evidence, such that it is. It may have been that the older ones weren't hiding behind the newer ones because they hadn't sold - they may have all been delivered together. And were then, as you say, snapped up eagerly regardless. 

[Get Marwood & I]

Not 8p, but 8d - and what a whopper! 

Size of it! 

[Malacoda]

On 6/6/2022 at 8:17 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Let me recap on the exercise I did Rich.

Steve, I can't thank you enough for going through everything again. When you invited me onto this board, I read and assimilated the entire thing, but that would be an incredible mission now.  This page (126) is now a fantastic go-to for a streamlined history of your meticulous research.  Thank you. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/6/2022 at 8:34 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

If we apply our 'stamp numbers match a sequential delivery pattern' theory here, six consecutive issues of Action turned up in the UK at the same time.  But no collector recalls 6 issues of Action on sale, do they? So what were T&P doing if all those books did arrive together? And how late does that make some of them?

This question may contain its own answer. Imagine you're T&P.  IND have just sent you six consecutive issues of Action. There is clearly no point in sending them out like this, you need to send them out in a logical monthly sequence (not least because no Action-buying-kid has enough pocket money to buy six of them in the same month and because you'd be saturating the market and getting most of them back as returns).  So you're going to split them up across 6 batches going out in the next six months.  But for audit / invoice / admin  / stock control purposes, you need to know which comics arrived in which shipments. And, having broken them up into separate bins / shelves / whatever,  which are going to sit there for the next six months, getting mixed with all the subsequent & previous deliveries that are going out in those later months, how do you know, six months later, which batch they arrived in?

Stampey stampey. 

That said, there's no reason to assume that the stamp numbers served only one purpose. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Malacoda

[Malacoda]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:40 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Not 8p, but 8d - and what a whopper! 

Size of it! 

Phew.  That's clearly a discount stamp from a 2nd hand dealer.  I nearly had heart failure there. Gilberton's part owned T&P, so if their comics weren't being distributed by T&P, we're really lost.  

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/6/2022 at 2:00 PM, Malacoda said:

Steve, I can't thank you enough for going through everything again. When you invited me onto this board, I read and assimilated the entire thing, but that would be an incredible mission now.  This page (126) is now a fantastic go-to for a streamlined history of your meticulous research.  Thank you. 

Hey, we do it together, and battle through the data. It's really hard to keep all this in your head, or in one handy reference document. It's a tree with a thousand branches. It doesn't surprise me that we need to pause and recap every once in a while. Fun though, isn't it.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/6/2022 at 2:35 PM, Malacoda said:

And, having broken them up into separate bins / shelves / whatever,  which are going to sit there for the next six months, getting mixed with all the subsequent & previous deliveries that are going out in those later months, how do you know, six months later, which batch they arrived in?

Why would you want / need to know? From the point you've taken them in, checked them to paperwork, and sorted them in preparation for distribution, why would you need to refer to them - the stamp numbers - again?

Can you think of a reason?

I receive six consecutive issues in one batch / shipment. I stamp them all with the same number. I file the issues in slots, for onward sequential, date driven distribution. Why do I ever need to refer to the stamp number again from that point?