The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/4/2022 at 5:10 PM, Malacoda said:

Obviously, it's hard to argue with this, but what I've found is that unless you've actually got some questions to ask the comics, they can't tell you the story.

Yes they can 

Well, Charltons always do, I find. Ask questions, that is. "Why do you keep buying us?" is one of them. 

On 6/4/2022 at 5:10 PM, Malacoda said:

BTW, do you support my contention?  You're a fellow Southerner, so I assume your memory of when/how the comics arrived and changed over each month is the same as mine?  You don't remember, for example, split months where half the titles on the newsagent's shelf were Jan and half were Feb?  It was always a particular cover month and then it changed, en masse, to the next cover month. 

I don't remember. I didn't pay one seven hundred and fiftieth of the attention then that I pay now. I just bought the fers and loved them. It was me and them. No groups, no fanzines, no chats with anybody else. The stories, covers and art was all I was interested in back in the day, and apart from a spell with my brother, comics have always been a solitary pleasure. It's only about the last 10-12 years that I've been obsessing over physical attributes, differences, production and UK related distribution. 

[Malacoda]

I remember very distinctly, although I could afford so few (my weekly pocket money was less than the cost of one comic....usually by a single penny!) so it might be that, clear as my memory is, my sample base is not the best.  However, I knew which newsagents had each month's comics the longest and when they changed over.  As I posted before, Twickenham Station was always the last place hanging onto last month's mags, so if I'd finally got enough coppers together, that was always my last chance.  I distinctly remember not buying Avengers 154 because Avengers never came in and its unexpected presence was surely a one-off fluke and I would be left high and dry on a cliff-hanger ending when 155 didn't turn up the next month.  I then bitterly regretted this decision, but it was too late. It had disappeared from the shelves. A harsh lesson. But then.....a new hope. My sister was being driven to visit a friend in nearby St. Margarets. Would my mum take me and swing by Twickenham Station? Miracle of miracles, she said yes.  And Avengers continued to come in thereafter ( I didn't know it was blocked by the UK weeklies at this point).  My copy of 154 is spine-rolled to oblivion having been read so many times. 

[themagicrobot]

There's far too much water under the bridge to help you with anything specific. I do tend to recall that at some point in the early 1970s I became aware that cover dates of new comics were now matching the month I was living in, whilst in the 1960s they hadn't.

I do recall buying this Superman comic. When Junior School finished for the day I set off to a newsagents half a mile away from school (in the opposite direction to where i lived). As the comic is dated July did I buy it in July, mere days before school broke up for the summer holidays? I recall it was raining and I stuck the comic inside my coat.  I think it was far more likely that I purchased it new and fresh from the spinner rack in September.  

Also I'll note that particular shop for years NEVER had any Marvels on the spinner rack, only DCs. I would definitely have noticed any FFs or Spideys as I collected them and had to travel to the other side of town (and often further) to find those. So T & P must have given the option of a monthly bundle of both or either or (at least in the mid 1960s).

Another recollection was buying a new one-shot Iron Man and Sub-Mariner from a spinner rack when on holiday. That comic was cover dated April. Did I buy it on holiday at Easter? I think it was more likely that I bought it in July or August as I recall we were camping.

 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/4/2022 at 4:37 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

So I for one, am looking forward to seeing what you have unearthed, Rich. Maybe the 1-9 system was something to do with invoicing. The UKPVs must have been ordered to a defined contractual volume, with records and payment based upon them. Being returns, with volumes dependant on US sales success, the DC books would need to be counted. Maybe T&P counted all the numbers and invoiced DC against that figure. They stamped a monthly delivery with a number from 1-9 and then counted them. Something like that, maybe.

But T & P stamped not only DC comics, but  a wide range of other publications. Why have the same stamp number across the board?

It must be so that T & P know which batch a particular comic, magazine, etc has arrived in.

And although this has been dismissed with a 'pshaw' before, I still believe that the number is a signal to the newsagent that the item is approaching the end of its shelf life, a 'best before' indicator telling him to prepare it for return to T & P.

And surely the books would have been counted BEFORE they sailed the ocean blue, if only to complete the paperwork, bills of lading, etc, and well before any stamps were applied.

The shipment would have arrived in England accompanied by a fully itemised list for Customs to peruse, also the customs clearance agent, unless Fred travelled to the dockside himself to load them into the back of his Rolls or Bentley or whatever he pulled the birds with at the time.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/4/2022 at 4:08 PM, Malacoda said:

However, on the UKPV's, obviously there was no need for the price stamp, but there was no stamp at all.  Clearly whatever the purpose of this stamp was for T&P, the price was essential, but the numbering system was just a nice-to-have because it was omitted from the UKPV's, which means that most of the time, T&P's distribution system for all Marvel comics operated without it.  Similarly, World used no visible stamping or system, so they didn't need it either.  

UKPVs did not need a price stamp.

But did they need a number stamp?

Maybe it would have been desirable, but it would have been at the cost of the extra wages for Ethel and her colleagues.

Maybe they picketed T & P when the word went round that things were moving in that direction.

[Malacoda]

On 6/4/2022 at 7:19 PM, themagicrobot said:

Also I'll note that particular shop for years NEVER had any Marvels on the spinner rack, only DCs. I would definitely have noticed any FFs or Spideys as I collected them and had to travel to the other side of town (and often further) to find those. So T & P must have given the option of a monthly bundle of both or either or (at least in the mid 1960s).

Another recollection was buying a new one-shot Iron Man and Sub-Mariner from a spinner rack when on holiday. That comic was cover dated April. Did I buy it on holiday at Easter? I think it was more likely that I bought it in July or August as I recall we were camping.

 

Thanks Robot.  I suspect, given that IND had Marvel's balls in a vice, that the volumes of Marvels shipped to T&P were significantly less than DC's (keeping in mind that by the time Marvel in the US threw off the shackles of IND, IND owned T&P so Marvel did not escape them in the UK), so I would not be surprised if there were loads of places that only got DC.  May also have been a question of which warehouse you were near.  Distribution may have been very uneven.  

The IM/SM one shot is, of course, a total maverick for us to as a yardstick (not surprised it sticks in your memory though). I can easily imagine a newsagent hanging onto that 'once in a lifetime issue' and even more so in a holiday/camping area. Might have been re-distributed there.  Can you remember where you were for that camping holiday? Cheers   

[Malacoda]

On 6/4/2022 at 8:35 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

UKPVs did not need a price stamp.

But did they need a number stamp?

Maybe it would have been desirable, but it would have been at the cost of the extra wages for Ethel and her colleagues.

I think this is exactly it.  I think it served a purpose, but the numbering was absolutely secondary to the price, and the time/cost of re-stamping comics that were already priced in sterling would have been non cost effective.  I also think, if the comics did have to be laid out or fanned out to dry, space must have been a huge consideration too. 1m comics laid end to end is 166 miles. Ethel's table would have started in Oadby and finished in the English Channel. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/4/2022 at 8:23 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

But T & P stamped not only DC comics, but  a wide range of other publications. Why have the same stamp number across the board?

It must be so that T & P know which batch a particular comic, magazine, etc has arrived in.

And although this has been dismissed with a 'pshaw' before, I still believe that the number is a signal to the newsagent that the item is approaching the end of its shelf life, a 'best before' indicator telling him to prepare it for return to T & P.

And surely the books would have been counted BEFORE they sailed the ocean blue, if only to complete the paperwork, bills of lading, etc, and well before any stamps were applied.

The shipment would have arrived in England accompanied by a fully itemised list for Customs to peruse, also the customs clearance agent, unless Fred travelled to the dockside himself to load them into the back of his Rolls or Bentley or whatever he pulled the birds with at the time.

But T & P stamped not only DC comics, but  a wide range of other publications. Why have the same stamp number across the board? It must be so that T & P know which batch a particular comic, magazine, etc has arrived in.

Yes. I think it was about stock control more than invoicing, and when I say stock control, I mean more about the returns than the outbound comics 

And although this has been dismissed with a 'pshaw' before, I still believe that the number is a signal to the newsagent that the item is approaching the end of its shelf life, a 'best before' indicator telling him to prepare it for return to T & P.

Pshaw. Again.  But I think you're right about the timing. It's not a stock count or invoice reconciliation from arrival, nor a tally of the comics as they get dispatched (though I'm sure that was done).  I think it was a way to keep tabs on all the comics coming back in, which happened in a far more sporadic and not-under-Fred's-control way. 

And surely the books would have been counted BEFORE they sailed the ocean blue, if only to complete the paperwork, bills of lading, etc, and well before any stamps were applied.

Absolutely definitely. And to clear customs, quantities and weight would have be specified.

[Malacoda]

Hey, Albert, please advise - what do you remember about the timing thing?  In the 60's, did Marvel comics arrive in chunks of same-cover-date-month, more or less in the month they were dated or was it more chaotic?  Were they split over 2 months, or was it just chaos? Many thanks. 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/4/2022 at 9:19 PM, Malacoda said:

Hey, Albert, please advise - what do you remember about the timing thing?  In the 60's, did Marvel comics arrive in chunks of same-cover-date-month, more or less in the month they were dated or was it more chaotic? 

At the time of my birthday (late May) in 1961, Tales Of Suspense 17 was on sale in a local sweetshop. Shortage of funds meant that I had to go back a few days later to get my grubby mitts on it.

My funds were low because I had recently bought TOS 18, plus TTA 20, Strange Tales 85 and JIM 68 from the newsagent at the bottom of the street. So the June 1961 issues had been available towards the end of May (JIM at the time always lagged a month behind the others).

Those were the first Marvels I bought, and I was hooked. From then until the end of the year (cover date), I bought all 4 titles as soon as I noticed them, plus Amazing Adventures when it appeared, but that was less well distributed than the others so I missed the first 3 issues, and the same pattern repeated itself, the cover date matching up, just about, with the end of the preceding month.

The first purchase that I have a definite date for was not until the summer of 1962, I will ferret out the documentation soon.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Albert Tatlock
add 1 word

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/4/2022 at 9:46 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

The first purchase that I have a definite date for was not until the summer of 1962, I will ferret out the documentation soon.

Here is a passport page. The relevant stamp is the bottom one on the left page, Hook Of Holland 15 August 1962.

On arrival at Harwich, I picked up Strange Tales # 97, cover date June, so at least a month out of date, from the station bookstall.

I had by that time given up on the Marvels, the big scary monsters that fascinated me a few months earlier had, like the dinosaurs, been overtaken by extinction, and the sci-fi/mystery replacements did not appeal, so I had jumped ship and transferred most of my negligible purchasing power to the Julius Schwartz DC titles. I think that the cover on this issue must have been the deciding factor.

[Malacoda]

On 6/4/2022 at 9:46 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

At the time of my birthday (late May) in 1961, Tales Of Suspense 17 was on sale in a local sweetshop. Shortage of funds meant that I had to go back a few days later to get my grubby mitts on it.

My funds were low because I had recently bought TOS 18, plus TTA 20, Strange Tales 85 and JIM 68 from the newsagent at the bottom of the street. So the June 1961 issues had been available towards the end of May (JIM at the time always lagged a month behind the others).

Those were the first Marvels I bought, and I was hooked. From then until the end of the year (cover date), I bought all 4 titles as soon as I noticed them, plus Amazing Adventures when it appeared, but that was less well distributed than the others so I missed the first 3 issues, and the same pattern repeated itself, the cover date matching up, just about, with the end of the preceding month.

The first purchase that I have a definite date for was not until the summer of 1962, I will ferret out the documentation soon.

Right, so they did all arrive more or less together and at this point just ahead of the cover date month.  It's not an overlap that TOS 17 was still available at the end of May because it was the May cd issue, so not a big surprise to find it was still kicking about at the end of May.   Many thanks.  If you have any memories from later on in the 60's that would also be great. 

[Albert Tatlock]

The quartet that I bought religiously were Astonish, Suspense, Strange Tales and JIM, they all arrived at once, a month or so apart, and seemingly all the local newsagents got the same batch, it was just a matter of chance where I happened to spot them first.

But it was never a great surprise to find some titles, DC and Marvel, still on sale months after what should have been their expiry date. I suppose the best explanation is laziness on the part of the shopkeeper, although, in the case of DCs, we know from the out of sync number stamps that there were late arrivals. There must have been many cases of an individual shop receiving a particular book twice or even more in succeeding batches, and the shopkeeper would have been in ignorance.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/4/2022 at 8:54 PM, Malacoda said:

I also think, if the comics did have to be laid out or fanned out to dry, space must have been a huge consideration too. 

  

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/4/2022 at 11:22 PM, Malacoda said:

Right, so they did all arrive more or less together and at this point just ahead of the cover date month.

You could speculate that the possibility of 'bunching' - a run of issues turning up in the same shipment - might have something to do with the stamp numbering. That number one in the four images above tells someone that those four books all arrived at the same time. But that assumes that they did of course - attributing sequential stamp numbers to sequential shipments is just our collective theory in this thread. If it were the case though, for the sake of argument, what would the benefit of that knowledge be to anyone, anyway? 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/4/2022 at 4:08 PM, Malacoda said:

Clearly whatever the purpose of this stamp was for T&P, the price was essential, but the numbering system was just a nice-to-have because it was omitted from the UKPV's, which means that most of the time, T&P's distribution system for all Marvel comics operated without it. 

The first T&P stamps were numbered, but unbranded:

When T&P added branding to their stamps, they retained the numbering:

That doesn't sound like a nice to have to me - it clearly served a purpose and that purpose was sufficiently important for it to be retained when the stamps were updated. 

[Get Marwood & I]

I've gathered snippets like these below, often telling different stories for different times. We might be able to lock down a process for, say 1961, but it doesn't follow that the same thing was happening in 1963 or 68. Things change, processes are fine tuned and improved. Recollections and evidence of a specific event or time may be indicative of just that time. 

 

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/4/2022 at 11:14 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Here is a passport page. The relevant stamp is the bottom one on the left page, Hook Of Holland 15 August 1962.

On arrival at Harwich, I picked up Strange Tales # 97, cover date June, so at least a month out of date, from the station bookstall.

I had by that time given up on the Marvels, the big scary monsters that fascinated me a few months earlier had, like the dinosaurs, been overtaken by extinction, and the sci-fi/mystery replacements did not appeal, so I had jumped ship and transferred most of my negligible purchasing power to the Julius Schwartz DC titles. I think that the cover on this issue must have been the deciding factor.

I love that 

[Malacoda]

On 6/5/2022 at 9:29 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

  

Nice catch.  Very nice.  Would you not agree that it's more impressive how few of these there are? (Given that tens of millions of comics were stamped).   I was trying to find examples where there was a nice big smear as if the next comic was put down on top of it and then moved while it was still wet, but there are really few.  And what you do see all the time is stamps where they are blobbed by the fact that way too much ink was on the stamp, but they are still not smeared.  It just looks like a lot of ink was used and then it was given ample time to dry.  Like our old friend here. By rights, this should look like a fountain pen sneezed on it. This was clearly given space to dry. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/5/2022 at 1:29 PM, Malacoda said:

Would you not agree that it's more impressive how few of these there are? (Given that tens of millions of comics were stamped). 

Yes, I posted it to show that the ink did transfer. The massive absence of examples indicates that they must have had drying time and puts the scale of the operation into focus as you said. That was one big table they had in Leicester, wasn't it