The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

That's better 

[Redshade]

On 6/11/2022 at 4:19 AM, Malacoda said:

Steve, somewhere in this lot, you say that the numbering system finished around the time of decimalisation, but I think it finished waaaaaay sooner.  I think the numbers disappeared in June/July 1970 and were replaced by just T&P, but I think the system had ceased to be used way before that.  I tracked it back from this point to the start of the third hiatus and the numbering becomes clearly meaningless (or the sequential part of it leaves the equation) from Nov/Dec 1969, because titles just re-use the same number every month.  And before this, as far as I can see, it’s total bloody chaos i.e. both bunching and multi-batching over periods of 6 months and more, which clearly didn’t happen (nobody remembers new copies of the same issue of their comics turning up month after month after month nor 6 months worth of issues all turning up together), so clearly it had nothing to do with the frequency of distribution. 
More tomorrow. 

Including some lovely, lovely tables that you’ll want some time alone with.  

I wonder if this had anything to do with it? The fact that around this time air freight was taking over from sea freight would have helped logistics immensely.

 

"An important event in the history of air freight occurred in 1945 with the formation of the International Air Transport Association. All-cargo airlines started to emerge, although it was still common for planes to carry a combination of cargo and passengers. Planes now had the capacity to travel further and faster, but the full potential of this for global trade wasn’t realised until decades later.

Fast fact: In 1968 Boeing launched the 747 – the first aircraft wide enough to transport full pallets in its cargo hold. This was a big win for the air cargo industry!

1990s – The boom of the ‘express’ parcel

It wasn’t until the 1990s that the idea of planes with the primary purpose of transporting cargo really gathered pace. This was thanks to the growth of express parcel carriers (such as FedEx, DHL and UPS), and the rise of the internet, which made air freight a much more accessible and reliable prospect for importers and exporters.

Fast fact: Without air freight, the idea of ‘express delivery’ wouldn’t exist. When travelling by sea, shipments from China to the UK can take weeks or even months to arrive. Send the shipment by air, however, and you can cut this down to just a few days".

[Malacoda]

On 6/11/2022 at 10:32 PM, Redshade said:

I wonder if this had anything to do with it? The fact that around this time air freight was taking over from sea freight would have helped logistics immensely.

 

"An important event in the history of air freight occurred in 1945 with the formation of the International Air Transport Association. All-cargo airlines started to emerge, although it was still common for planes to carry a combination of cargo and passengers. Planes now had the capacity to travel further and faster, but the full potential of this for global trade wasn’t realised until decades later.

Fast fact: In 1968 Boeing launched the 747 – the first aircraft wide enough to transport full pallets in its cargo hold. This was a big win for the air cargo industry!

1990s – The boom of the ‘express’ parcel

It wasn’t until the 1990s that the idea of planes with the primary purpose of transporting cargo really gathered pace. This was thanks to the growth of express parcel carriers (such as FedEx, DHL and UPS), and the rise of the internet, which made air freight a much more accessible and reliable prospect for importers and exporters.

Fast fact: Without air freight, the idea of ‘express delivery’ wouldn’t exist. When travelling by sea, shipments from China to the UK can take weeks or even months to arrive. Send the shipment by air, however, and you can cut this down to just a few days".

I think this is relevant to the thread and the overall discussion about distribution, but not to this question.  In the 60’s, comics came by sea on traditional cargo ships.  With the opening of Felixstowe to container ships in 1967, sea shipping changed and at some point the shipping of comics changed to containers (it’s actually what a lot of those legendary 60’s dock strikes were about).  I don’t know when exactly it changed for the importation of Marvel comics, but broadly speaking in the 60’s T&P got their comics via traditional cargo ships and in the 1970’s World got them from container ships. 

Where the air freight becomes key for comics is actually not in the 90’s but in the 80’s or maybe as early as 1978. Whilst supplies to the newsagents carried on arriving by ship, supplies to the growing number of comic shops began arriving by air. 

Somehow, as far back as the mid 70’s, Bram Stokes was getting his supplies of new comics for Dark They Were And Golden Eyed way ahead of high street distribution (like 2 months ahead), but he was the first comic shop in the country, so no surprise he had his act together ahead of everyone else – he invented the act.  I think he was still getting his supplies by sea, but he had a direct deal, probably with Phil Seuling, to supply all the latest titles directly, so he wasn’t getting his stuff from the likes of T&P and World, or IND and Curtis, he was getting it at whopping 60% discount from Seagate (yes, Steve, this was after Luke Cage escaped. They fixed the hole he made in the wall, and, somewhat surprisingly, went into comic distribution). 

In 1973, Nick Landau founded his CMDS company, which imported comics directly from Marvel and DC and then sold on to comic shops (of which there were few) but also to the burgeoning number of comic dealers at marts and conventions (the largest of which he founded) and operators of mail order businesses. In 1978,  Luckman, Lake and Landau (not to be confused with Emerson, Lake & Palmer) founded Titan distributors and as soon as demand could pay for it, they began flying comics in.  Neptune Distributors, which was set up as direct competition to Titan, rather ironically, used air freight from the get-go, so Titan had established air freight as the benchmark for supplies to the direct comic market by 1985 at the latest. 

But I don’t think it played a role in the mystery of the T&P stamps. Though, as a wise man once said (repeatedly), never say never. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/11/2022 at 9:10 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Yes, I meant physically on the stamps - the numbering, utilised or not, and from whatever actual date, disappears from the first single priced post decimal 5p stamp:

I must not be quite understanding what you mean.  If the numbering specifically disappears from the first single priced post decimal 5p stamp, then obviously there would not be any pre-decimal, 1/- stamps without the numbers on.   And there are. From April 1970 to July 1970, you have stamps with T&P (note the ampersand, no number) and pre-decimal prices, then in August you have the stamps that are both 1/- and 5p and from September it all goes decimal with 5p and T&P, no numbers.

Whilst the 4 months of no numbering system + old money is only a small window, it does demonstrate that the numbers did not go hand in glove with the old money, nor did they did disappear with decimal prices.

I must be missing something here, right?   

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Malacoda

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/12/2022 at 3:27 AM, Malacoda said:

I must be missing something here, right?   

Nope. I relied on that stamp gathering image I made and forgot that it needed updating with all the stamp types I subsequently found. Apologies, Rich, carry on. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/12/2022 at 8:28 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Nope. I relied on that stamp gathering image I made and forgot that it needed updating with all the stamp types I subsequently found. Apologies, Rich, carry on. 

Phew.  OK, before I press on with this, here's what I captured with Cap as an example (Cap's good because = all stamps, no PV's).  I assume, as usual, I will get half way through this exercise and then discover, many hours in, that there's something else I should have (and easily could have) captured. 

So let's measure twice and cut once. 

This is what I'm capturing...

Note that from Dec 67 to Oct 69, there is no distinct pattern.  An uber view of everything might reveal a pattern, but I will be bloody surprised.  When you only have one piece of the jigsaw, you can't see the whole jigsaw, but when you have a banana, you know it's not even a piece of a jigsaw. 

From November 69 to March 1970, everything is just T3P, so if the number is still serving any purpose, it's no longer a sequential one.

April & May have a mix of T&P stamps (no number) and T3P. 

June and July are just T&P

August is the 1/- and 5p split stamp. 

September onwards are decimal and no numbers (T&P). Note that this is Sept 70, so well before the decimal deadline and 15 months before the PV's go decimal.  

My favourite issue is TOS 98, which apparently falls into 5 different batches (possibly 6 or more as some have 5p stickers over the numbers, but I suspect just 5. This example is clearly a T7P).  If there is still some system in play here that somehow marries up to the original sequences, it's going to take Rachel Riley to figure it out. 

So before I get any further down the rabbit hole, is there anything else anyone can think that I should be capturing?

Cheers

ps the T9D in the table is a typo - it all needs a lot of tidying up. 

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/12/2022 at 7:41 PM, Malacoda said:

So before I get any further down the rabbit hole, is there anything else anyone can think that I should be capturing?

I do love a table 

@Garystar did an exercise like this the other year Rich - here's the extract from his spreadsheet, next to yours for comparsion:

          

 

Rich, what exactly are you trying to show here? We know already that the stamp numbering is sequential in the early DC cycles, then falls away in the later ones. What is it specifically that you are trying to show / prove with this further deep dive?

[Get Marwood & I]

While we wait for Richmond to elaborate, here are two more of our UK reprint titles that I picked up along the way.

This first one I bought because I've always liked the cover. There's something about that spindly creature terrorising Trafalgar Square that even the rotten cover stain can't spoil:

"Don't let them near me!" 

 "OK, leave it to me lady. I'll stop 'em" 

"How! They're 200 foot tall!" 

 "Fair point. Second thoughts, you're on your own love" 

 

And I like this Voodoo #7 because it has the most ridiculous cover and a lousy attempt at a 6p sticker removal, duly abandoned. Don't ask me why Duly abandoned it, she just did.

The Phantom Gloves (singular)!

An interesting take, when compared to the US story original:

Two gloves on that one, as you can see. 

 

[Malacoda]

On 6/13/2022 at 1:36 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

While we wait for Richmond to elaborate, here are two more of our UK reprint titles that I picked up along the way.

This first one I bought because I've always liked the cover. There's something about that spindly creature terrorising Trafalgar Square that even the rotten cover stain can't spoil:

"Don't let them near me!"

"OK, leave it to me lady. I'll stop 'em"

"How! They're 200 foot tall!"

"Fair point. Second thoughts, you're on your own love"

 

And I like this Voodoo #7 because it has the most ridiculous cover and a lousy attempt at a 6p sticker removal, duly abandoned. Don't ask me why Duly abandoned it, she just did.

The Phantom Gloves (singular)!

An interesting take, when compared to the US story original:

Two gloves on that one, as you can see. 

 

You've stumbled onto one of the Robot's favourites there. 

More Fantastic Tales | The Magic Robot (wordpress.com)

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/13/2022 at 1:46 PM, Malacoda said:

You've stumbled onto one of the Robot's favourites there. 

More Fantastic Tales | The Magic Robot (wordpress.com)

 

Troubled Great minds....

[Malacoda]

On 6/12/2022 at 8:08 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Rich, what exactly are you trying to show here? We know already that the stamp numbering is sequential in the early DC cycles, then falls away in the later ones. What is it specifically that you are trying to show / prove with this further deep dive?

I think that it might be easier to crack some of the mystery of the stamps from when it stopped rather than when it started.

We don’t really know why it started and the reason seems to have been in place pre 1959. However, the point at which it stopped might be more definitive. Something like a piece of legislation or tax rule may have changed.  And whatever that was must have been the reason for its existence, unless if was just a change in their business practices, but then why were their business practices so different for PV’s and cents? Seems more likely to be regulation they were conforming to.

The stamping practices may have been a direct solution to that regulation, or may have been an administrative practice that facilitated a solution downstream. 
 

For example, in the late 50’s, we’re in the middle of an extreme balance of payments crisis, right? So the government has very strict controls on how much sterling can leave the country in any form e.g. sterling that was always sterling can’t be used to buy dollars above a certain amount, however, Registered Sterling, i.e. sterling that was bought with gold or dollars in the first place is exchangeable back & forth in dollars & sterling.  This means you’ve got a pot of money that can only be used for operating your domestic business and another pot of money, heavily regulated, which is the capital for your imports.  If Gilberton’s were owners or silent partners in T&P for this reason, as I’ve theorised, their dollar capital might be all or some of this import pot. 

Let’s say, for arguments sake, that at the point of audit, you’ve got X amount of stock in your warehouse, waiting to go out….
 

And now, a short film entitled The Auditors come to Oadby: 
 

Int.    Warehouse.   Day. 
 

“Well, Mr. Thorpe, I’m afraid the value of US imports in your warehouse massively exceeds the value of your registered sterling for the month” 
“No, no, this lot over here are all new comics which have come in this month, so they’re new spend, but that lot over there are all returns. They’re comics that were bought months ago and are now going out again for re-sale, so they’re part of previous months’ allowances”
“I see. But just because these comics were printed in the States earlier than those, that doesn’t prove when you imported them, nor that they have already been distributed once to the UK market.  You need a system for tracking these through your distribution system so that when they come back as returns, the stock is all accounted separately and which month they originally arrived in can be substantiated.”
“But, but, we’d have to put some sort of sequential numbering system in place and it would have to be stamped on every comic individually”
“Best get cracking, Mr. Thorpe”
[And… scene]

OK, so imagine that in 1970, the exchange controls on sterling imports are revised, and this is no longer necessary.  That’s when you change yer stamps. 
I’m just spit balling here, but it seems to me that there must have been some kind of change that rendered the numbers redundant.  So if we can figure out when the numbers stopped meaning anything, we’ve got some sort of line in the sand.  

This, incidentally, is an issue I have with Albert’s theory that it was a signal to the newsagent to take the comics off the shelves.  That sounds completely plausible to me, except why stop doing it? It clearly wasn’t replaced with any kind of marker on the comics themselves. 

We’re stumped as to why the numbers were placed on the comics to begin with, but it might be more illuminating to ask: 
When did they stop?
Why did they stop?
Why was it important to remove the numbers from the stamps? If they were redundant, why not just carry on using the stamps for pricing?
Why change the stamps in April 1970 (note, start of the tax year?) and why create new T&P stamps, but carry on using the old number stamps in tandem and putting decimal stickers on some of the comics?  Why not just use your shiny new T&P stamps?
More importantly, why have stamps created with the new T&P brand, but the old currency, when you already needed new ones with decimal currency? And then get more new ones with both currencies which you only use for one month? And then get yet more new ones only a month later with decimal prices? All the while putting 5p stickers on some of them (or were these late arrivals stickered afterwards? Seems to be too many of them for that).  Obviously, the cost of the stamps is incidental, but whatever system was behind them has clearly gone by this point because this is chaos. 

So…at what point does the system which you have divined in the early years actually break down? If both bunching and multi-batching increase as it goes along, was it just a system that broke down, or was it a system whose reason for being ceased and chaos slowly ensued?

I think the riddle of stamps might be easier to solve at the back end.  
  

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/13/2022 at 1:52 PM, Malacoda said:

I think the riddle of the stamps might be easier to solve at the back end.  

Sounds like a York and MacCorkindale film.

And now, a short film entitled The Auditors Have Just Left Oadby:

"Bugger. They want us to put some sort of sequential numbering system in place to track these comics through our distribution system so that when they come back as returns, the stock is all accounted separately and which month they originally arrived in can be substantiated."

"That's a drag Dave. How often do the ships arrive?"

"Monthly"

"Figures. Monthly shipments for monthly comics. How about a numbered stamp?"

"Yes..... Yes! That'll do it. We'll have a stamp for each shipment, numbered one to nine!"

"Twelve months in a year, Dave"

"What?"

"Twelve, Dave. Months in a year"

"Yeah. Your point...?"

"Don't worry about it Dave"

[Malacoda]

On 6/13/2022 at 2:01 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

"Twelve, Dave. Months in a year"

Indeed. But whatever the answer turns out to be, I can't imagine there was an actual reason for it being 9 other than the structure of the stamps themselves. If our sine-qua-non for an explanation is that it has to explain why there were 9 numbers on the stamps, I think it's going to be an uphill struggle.  A more interesting question, IMO, is why did it go as high as nine?  Apart from a few straggler returns, warehouse finds etc, was there actually some business cycle around distribution that went in 9 month cycles? It seems bloody unlikely.  If I had to speculate (had to?) I'd say that when they started, they bought a bunch of off-the-rack, John Bull stamps - the ones that had no T&P logo - and just used them.  When they then had bespoke ones made, the 9 cycle was entrenched. 

I further speculate that if, rather than 9 separate stamps with fixed numbers, they were stamps with the number on a rotor, then the wheel with the number on might only have had space for a single digit. To stamp out clearly with the ink on, double digits would need equal space for both digits.  This would mean either that 10, 11, 12 would have to be smaller than 1-9 or there would be a space which would cause a big ink splat. 

This getting a bit insane now, but if you look at the T&P stamps, the ampersand is always, always on a level with the T and the P, which makes me think it was a fixed stamp, but when it was numbering, the numbers were raised, which makes think maybe they were on a rotor?  You can see there was no way for 2 digits on that stamp. 

Maybe it was just happenstance (happenstamps?)  like that.  Check out this stamp on Amazon with 9, count 'em, 9 lines of text of your choosing.  A hundred years from now will a bunch of nerds be sitting on whatever the Hell the 22nd century internet is, asking "but why did they choose NINE lines of text?  What is the significance of nine?".  

If you're out there, dudes, the stamp just came like that. Now shut off your fission-powered laptops, go out in the sunshine (assuming you still can) and chat up some 22nd century girlies. 

Amazon.com : Self Inking Rubber Stamp with up to 9 Lines of Custom Text (Ships for Free) : Business Stamps : Office Products

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/13/2022 at 3:42 PM, Malacoda said:

Indeed. But whatever the answer turns out to be, I can't imagine there was an actual reason for it being 9 other than the structure of the stamps themselves. If our sine-qua-non for an explanation is that it has to explain why there were 9 numbers on the stamps, I think it's going to be an uphill struggle.  A more interesting question, IMO, is why did it go as high as nine?  Apart from a few straggler returns, warehouse finds etc, was there actually some business cycle around distribution that went in 9 month cycles? It seems bloody unlikely.  If I had to speculate (had to?) I'd say that when they started, they bought a bunch of off-the-rack, John Bull stamps - the ones that had no T&P logo - and just used them.  When they then had bespoke ones made, the 9 cycle was entrenched. 

I further speculate that if, rather than 9 separate stamps with fixed numbers, they were stamps with the number on a rotor, then the wheel with the number on might only have had space for a single digit. To stamp out clearly with the ink on, double digits would need equal space for both digits.  This would mean either that 10, 11, 12 would have to be smaller than 1-9 or there would be a space which would cause a big ink splat. 

This getting a bit insane now, but if you look at the T&P stamps, the ampersand is always, always on a level with the T and the P, which makes me think it was a fixed stamp, but when it was numbering, the numbers were raised, which makes think maybe they were on a rotor?  You can see there was no way for 2 digits on that stamp. 

Maybe it was just happenstance (happenstamps?)  like that.  Check out this stamp on Amazon with 9, count 'em, 9 lines of text of your choosing.  A hundred years from now will a bunch of nerds be sitting on whatever the Hell the 22nd century internet is, asking "but why did they choose NINE lines of text?  What is the significance of nine?".  

If you're out there, dudes, the stamp just came like that. Now shut off your fission-powered laptops, go out in the sunshine (assuming you still can) and chat up some 22nd century girlies. 

Amazon.com : Self Inking Rubber Stamp with up to 9 Lines of Custom Text (Ships for Free) : Business Stamps : Office Products

 

Number nine...number nine....number nine...numbe- Oh. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/13/2022 at 3:42 PM, Malacoda said:

Maybe it was just happenstance (happenstamps?)  like that. 

[Get Marwood & I]

[Malacoda]

On 6/13/2022 at 3:49 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Number nine...number nine....number nine...numbe- Oh. 

 

Oh FFS.  And it's a roman numeral well. Even better.  I think I'm going to take my own advice and go and sit in the sunshine and do a crossword with the mem-sahib. 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Malacoda

[Malacoda]

On 6/13/2022 at 4:00 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

That's just sarcasm at this point.   

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/13/2022 at 4:30 PM, Malacoda said:

That's just sarcasm at this point.   

Just showing what's achievable, Rich 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/13/2022 at 3:42 PM, Malacoda said:

I further speculate that if, rather than 9 separate stamps with fixed numbers, they were stamps with the number on a rotor, then the wheel with the number on might only have had space for a single digit.

There are lots of such stamps, most common have 2 digits or more, so they can be used, say, by the Post Office counter staff to date stamp whatever forms are presented to them.

The numbers are on a strip of rubber. You just lift off the end of the gadget, advance the strip one notch and close the gadget again. Now you are ready for your next bout of RSI.

 Could be a 1 digit stamp cost less than a 2 digit one.

Of course, with a little more expense, T & P could have stamped all the incoming stuff with a month and year, say 08.61, but that would call the customer's attention to how out of date the item might be, as the stamps were usually more prominent than the date printed on the cover. A matter of supreme indifference to young comic buyers, maybe not so much for adults wanting their DIY mags and so on to be bang up to date.