The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/15/2022 at 5:57 PM, OtherEric said:

I would say that, even if there are various complications, that the idea the DC UKPV covers are directly tied to the change in ownership and the move is reasonable, even if it's an incomplete explanation of all the books we have.

Quite likely, yes. But Rich's argument - unless I've misunderstood it - was that the UKPVs were put in place because they couldn't stamp cents copies owing to the premises move. The existence of cents copies in multiples disproves that specific element. I'm hoping he'll be along shortly for round two, though 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/15/2022 at 5:59 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

The Action and Superboy must be late arrivals

Yup

It all adds to the fun. Issue #257 was beaten by issues 258 and 259 in the race to get to UK shores 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/15/2022 at 6:04 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Issue #257 was beaten by issues 258 and 259 in the race to get to UK shores

Lex Luthor, the star of the cover of 257, obviously paid little heed to the fable of the tortoise and the hare.

[Albert Tatlock]

LEICESTER FORTNIGHT:

The Leicester/Nottingham area is the centre of the UK's knitwear industry, but it is not the only industry to be found there.

Below is what a quick search on Google turns up:

The much-beloved Leicestershire Workers’ July Fortnight started fifty five years ago in 1965.

An announcement was made that factory holidays in Loughborough, Shepshed and other places in the district were to be changed from the first two weeks of August to the first two weeks of July. This meant that work at such places as The Brush would effectively close down for the fortnight, with many workers boarding the special holiday trains to popular destinations such as Skegness.

If T & P followed this tradition, there would be a couple of weeks each summer when the premises were closed, or operated with a skeleton staff.

If the stamping was suspended, there would have been a backlog building up in the warehouse, with subsequent bunching of the following month's deliveries.

Of course, if T & P were not unionised, maybe their staff did not grab their buckets and spades and set off in search of a stick of rock, but most of the knitwear firms mentioned above were, and still are, non-union.

The disruption caused by a 2 week gap would be made up for fairly soon, though, and maybe there is no evidence in the stamping to be found.

I do, however, have records of purchases I made in the 1960s which show evidence of bunching, I will try to present it in an orderly fashion soon.

 

[Malacoda]

On 6/16/2022 at 12:57 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

LEICESTER FORTNIGHT:

The Leicester/Nottingham area is the centre of the UK's knitwear industry, but it is not the only industry to be found there.

Below is what a quick search on Google turns up:

The much-beloved Leicestershire Workers’ July Fortnight started fifty five years ago in 1965.

An announcement was made that factory holidays in Loughborough, Shepshed and other places in the district were to be changed from the first two weeks of August to the first two weeks of July. This meant that work at such places as The Brush would effectively close down for the fortnight, with many workers boarding the special holiday trains to popular destinations such as Skegness.

If T & P followed this tradition, there would be a couple of weeks each summer when the premises were closed, or operated with a skeleton staff.

If the stamping was suspended, there would have been a backlog building up in the warehouse, with subsequent bunching of the following month's deliveries.

Of course, if T & P were not unionised, maybe their staff did not grab their buckets and spades and set off in search of a stick of rock, but most of the knitwear firms mentioned above were, and still are, non-union.

The disruption caused by a 2 week gap would be made up for fairly soon, though, and maybe there is no evidence in the stamping to be found.

I do, however, have records of purchases I made in the 1960s which show evidence of bunching, I will try to present it in an orderly fashion soon.

 

I really like this.

This is fascinating to think about, but doesn't it propose a whole new theory of what the stamps mean?  e.g. 50 of comic A arrive, Ethel stamps half of them batch 1, then she goes on her holidays, comes back and stamps the rest of that same batch as batch 2.  And/or,  Ethel is happily stamping a batch as Batch 1, then she goes on her holidays, while she's away the next month's comics arrive from IND, and she carries on stamping the next month's comics as Batch 1 as well. 

How do we then explain that the bunching and multi-batching goes on for anything up to 6 months?  Did Ethel summer with the Rainiers in Monaco and only return to (much rainier) Leicester months later? 

Also, I think that the real reason for the tradition of giving everyone the same two weeks off was to do vital maintenance and repairs to plant, factories and machinery.  T&P didn't have any of that, just a warehouse and about 50 staff.  I think shutting the place down just so Igor could oil the forklift and rub some linseed oil into Ethel's best stamp would be massive overkill.  

But this is really interesting and a great catch.  If this did turn out to be relevant in some way my spoiled Southern Gen X imagination can't grasp, I would not be surprised. 

 

[Malacoda]

On 6/15/2022 at 6:03 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Quite likely, yes. But Rich's argument - unless I've misunderstood it - was that the UKPVs were put in place because they couldn't stamp cents copies owing to the premises move. The existence of cents copies in multiples disproves that specific element. I'm hoping he'll be along shortly for round two, though 

You wanna ring the bell, Apollo? 

[Malacoda]

On 6/15/2022 at 6:03 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Quite likely, yes. But Rich's argument - unless I've misunderstood it - was that the UKPVs were put in place because they couldn't stamp cents copies owing to the premises move. The existence of cents copies in multiples disproves that specific element. I'm hoping he'll be along shortly for round two, though 

I don’t believe it does disprove it.
The PV’s would presumably have been dispatched when printed, right? (so would have been shipped to the UK with the usual shipment of older returns). 
Later, when the US cents returns of those five came back, do you reckon they said:

‘oh, wait a sec, a few of those are titles we’ve already sent previously as PV’s. Better spend a few hours sifting those out of each stack of returns and then bin them all and lose the extra revenue. We don’t want to mess up our superb monthly continuity in the UK’.    

Or do you reckon they said ‘who gives a toss? just send ‘em’.

Their policy towards the UK seems to me to be very much more the ‘Who Gives A Toss?’ approach.  

If something, anything, indicated that these cents copies came over at the same time as the PV’s and were stamped and sent out alongside the PV’s, then you’d definitely have me.  But we know (or pretty much 100% believe) that the DC comics coming over were returns months later, so how does the fact that these 5 came over as cents issues in October or November or whenever and got stamped disprove the possibility that there could have been a stamping hiatus in the late spring / early summer? 

For example, here’s Mr. Miracle #3, cd August, presumably rocked up some months later and got stamped 5p.  Why couldn’t these 5 have done the same?

You might be right, and this might be evidence of it, but I’m not smelling the cordite. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/15/2022 at 8:27 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Five inaugural DC UKPVs for Jul/Aug '71 cover dates. Five Marvels (only, oddly, as it was ten at the time) for cover dates October. Coincidence? Marvels never seem to quite align with DC, date-wise, do they. Maybe there is something in that. Maybe the same event caused the same outcome - five UKPVS each - but manifested in different cover dates. 

I don’t think so.  I think the 5 distributed issues in October 1971 relates to a number of different causes, but they’re all identifiable in the US distribution and not related to distribution to the UK. 

And also….

 

(builds up suspense).....

 

 

It never happened !!!

 

In October 1971, there were 13 titles produced (excl romance, humour, etc)  in total (as opposed to 23 in September, and 21 in November), so it was indeed a very skinny month.

Of the then current titles:

Two Gun Kid, Kid Colt, Creatures on the Loose & Amazing Adventures  were bi-monthly and not scheduled to be produced this month and would have been ND anyway.

Where Monsters Dwell was bi-monthly and not scheduled to be produced this month.

Where Creatures Roam had just been cancelled.

Marvel Tales, Marvel Super Heroes & Fear were all over the place and also not produced this month (but would not now have been distributed to the UK anyway).

Mighty Marvel Westerns & Western Gunfighters were quarterly and ND to the UK anyway.

Marvel Special Edition was all over the place and was not published in this month.

Rawhide Kid, Captain America, Sgt Fury, Xmen, Monsters on the Prowl, Astonishing Tales, Outlaw Kid & Conan were all produced but ND in the UK.

This boils it down to 3 comics that were unexpectedly ‘absent’ (Thor, Avengers & Daredevil), all of which went GS the following month. 

Generally most Marvel titles had a sales window of about 80 – 90 days between the on sale date and the 1^st day of the cover month, but these 3 had a much shorter window (i.e. a much shorter shelf life) of around 50 – 60 days (it varies by title and by month). 

For whatever reason this had been the case, when they got to the point of changing to GS, the increased cost of paper & distribution meant they needed higher sell through and therefore the longest possible shelf life, so these three titles were harmonised with the others.  It therefore appears, if you look at cover dates, that 3 issues were missing, but if you look at on sale dates, there are no gaps.  They just pushed forward in time, like a reverse leap year.

So while I agree with your number, and 5 was indeed super skinny, it was more a confluence of (1)  the normal bi-monthly/quarterly/wildly random production schedule (2) the fact that loads of stuff was ND due to the new deal with World and (3) prep for the earth-shattering and instantly cancelled GS revolution of November 1971. 

[Albert Tatlock]

Re bunching:

I have dusted off the most ancient of my tomes that I can find, with purchases recorded, most are from second-hand sources, as my funds were limited, but I can identify those that were brand new at the time because they cost me 10d each.

I bought new copies quite sparingly, I was prepared to wait until run-of-the-mill stuff turned up on the street markets, etc, a few weeks later.

Some I just had to have as soon as they appeared, though, and FF was top of my list.

June 14th 1967, FF #59 (from my uncle's newsagents)

                           FF # 60 (from another local shop)

June 15th 1967 FF # 61, 62, 63 (my uncle)

July 26th 1967  FF # 56 (a different local shop)

July 28th 1967 FF # 64 (yet another different shop)

August 7th 1967  FF # 57 (a local collector, price not recorded, but almost certainly over face value)

August 30th 1967  FF # 65, 66 (my uncle)

October 31st 1967  FF # 67 (my uncle)

November 29th 1967  FF # 68 (another different shop)

February 2nd 1968   FF # 69 (yet another different)  - this one with the price increase of a shilling.

So there appears to be a good bit of bunching, between mid-June and late August 7 issues plus # 56 and 57, delayed and presumably strangers to T & P, then normal approximately monthly arrivals. 5 of the 7 I found on 2 consecutive days.

I cannot say for sure that the issues between 59 and 64 had not been hanging around unsold for a while, but I think that if I had noticed those issues earlier, I would have bought them earlier.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/16/2022 at 6:09 PM, Malacoda said:

Also, I think that the real reason for the tradition of giving everyone the same two weeks off was to do vital maintenance and repairs to plant, factories and machinery

Correct. That would be the only time the boilers in the cotton mills were not in operation, so only then could maintenance be carried out.

There is a wealth of information on the Wakes Weeks tradition in the industrial North, and the Leicester fortnight is its counterpart in that part of the world. it is still observed, not to the extent today that the mill towns became ghost towns for a couple of weeks in the days when the world was black and white.

And Blackpool thrived on the influx of factory workers each summer. Each town had different Wakes Weeks, so the arrivals to the seaside were staggered. Leicester and Nottingham's sons and daughters of toil would have headed mostly to Skeggy.

A bit more soon on seaside comic finds, once I ferret out my purchase records.

[Malacoda]

On 6/15/2022 at 8:27 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

And there's an element of contradiction in your theory - if you say DC did not want their product to be absent from the shelves, why order a measly 5 UKPVs? They were distributing pretty much all DC titles at this point - five isn't going to go unnoticed, is it? To me, the five UKPVs have an experimental air about them. They don't feel forced, to me. 

1)    I am totally spit-balling here, but I think it was a plan that began to be implemented and then was cancelled as soon as it started, like GS Marvels in November. If someone said to you ‘wow, you know it amazes me that whatever Marvel were trying to achieve with the GS issues, they achieved it only ONE month, and then, mission accomplished, went back to regular sized issues’ you would have to tell them ‘no, that is literally the opposite of what went down’. So, I don’t think they sat down and planned to print 5 issues and no more. I think, exactly as you do, that they were experimenting or that they were ramping something up which then proved unnecessary and was cancelled.  But I think if they happened to be experimenting with PV’s at the exact moment, and only that moment, when Marvel moved to an only-PV distributor, that’s a Hell of a coincidence. And if you then throw in that that happened to be the exact same moment when their UK distributor was shutting down the location where all the stamping was done, well, that’s a level of coincidence that would get you beaten up even in a friendly poker game. 
2)    As you say, if they were trying to prevent their product from being absent from the shelves, why order a measly 5 titles?  They didn’t.  They were only in the PV game for NINE days. I suggest that is too short a time to judge anything from the timeframe or the number of titles produced, except that whatever they were doing, they changed their minds bloody quickly. 
3)    There is actually some logic to this in terms of the points that you raise.  If the purpose of the DC PV’s was, as I propose, to stopgap a temporary problem, which was fixed faster than it was feared it might be, that explains why it was so short. So actually the shortness and the measliness not only support my theory, they also support each other (if it had gone on longer, there would have been more titles).
4)    Let’s look at it the other way for a second.  If you were launching into a new country where many of your titles were already selling, surely you’d print PV’s for everything you were exporting & stamping.  If it wasn’t selling, why were T&P buying it?  If it was selling and they were going over to PV’s, why exclude those titles? Doesn’t make sense.  But if it was a temporary stopgap to keep DC in the market before normal service was resumed…..which titles would you make PV’s of? It would be all the marquee titles, wouldn’t it? All the ones with absolute association to your brand. All the ones you really cared about. If you look at what got a PV in that 9 day period, it is ALL Superman, Supergirl, Batman & Flash. Strange Adventures #231, Forever People #4, House of Secrets #93 and Our Army at War #235 all fall into the same nine day period but aren’t included in the experiment. Why not? 
5)    Maybe the problem is that the warning from T&P was just a ‘might be’.  Marvel were minded to get out of their deal with T&P anyway and this was just the right moment, or the last straw.  DC were never breaking ties with T&P, so they took some initial steps to check the alternative system, but the problem never actually materialised (or was literally a matter of a few days to get up & running and it was gone).
6)    Let’s keep in mind also that from the other side of the Atlantic, there is pretty much nothing else you can do.  If the British problem was discussed at all, it was probably item 34 of a meeting no one wanted to be in and if there was only one thing they could do from there and it cost less than ten thousand bucks, well, why are you bringing this to me? Just do it.  Keep in mind that DC is part of Engulf & Devour by now. 

Actual footage of a board meeting. 

Silent Movie (1976) - Engulf & Devour - YouTube
 

7)    Whatever the experiment was, they clearly cancelled it long before it was over.  Whatever they were trying to check about the viability of doing UK PV’s, in 9 days the comics probably hadn’t even left the warehouse, let alone been shipped to Newark, sailed to Liverpool, been processed at T&P, been distributed around the country, had a month to sell whatever they were going to sell and what returns were coming back come back, sales figures collated and new orders placed by T&P.  So what was it? Well, if it was to address a potential problem that suddenly got solved…. 

8)    If it was an experiment, I keep trying to imagine what else makes sense of this.  Sales to T&P were final, no SOR, so not that.  Could they charge more to T&P for PV’s? Well, probably, but they owned T&P so what’s the endgame? Were T&P pushing for PV’s because it made their lives easier? Hmmmm….pay proper money for new comics fresh off the presses rather than make galactic profits off the super cheap distressed inventory – I think not.  Did they want a taste of the Marvel action – both PV’s and stamped copies?  Well, Marvel were getting out of that game, so it can’t have been that great, and that approach only really makes sense if you’ve got few returns in the US and a thriving fan base in the UK.  If you’ve got a mountain of returns and have done nothing to generate a UK fan base, it makes no sense.  Did T&P want it for some other reason?  They were already resorting to turning DC returns into double doubles, annuals and re-distributing to sell at discounts.  How is a printed pence price going to turn that around? 

Nope. Whatever it was, it seemed like a really good idea in the last week of May and a bad one by the first week of June.

I think it's more likely it was something that might have been needed in the last week of May and was determined to be unnecessary a week later. 

I think the timeframe, the measly 5 titles, the choice of titles, the timing, the fact that whatever the issue was, it was resolved really fast, and that, if it was an experiment, nothing we can see can possibly have been determined by it in 5 issues and 9 days, all sits well with the theory that it was a potential issue caused by the closure of Oadby at that time. 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/16/2022 at 8:50 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

A bit more soon on seaside comic finds, once I ferret out my purchase records

Mister Miracle # 3 was scarce at the time of its first appearance, lots of people had it on their wants list.

Over a year later, at the end of July 1972, I found a bundle of them in Bournemouth and scooped them all up. There were other out of date issues in the same shop, but nothing else worth spending 5 pence on.

There has been speculation further back in this thread, that scenarios like this were part of T & P's (and Alan Class's) cunning plan to get rid of mouldy old stock to holidaymakers who might be less discerning.

The stamp on the front is nice and clear, with just a little smudge on the back from the stamping operation.......................

Edited June 17, 2022 by Albert Tatlock
correct typo

[Albert Tatlock]

.............but the back of my MM # 2 is about as clear an example you can get of ink transfer.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/15/2022 at 4:38 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

                      

                                                                                       

                                                                                     

Another Action 258 with 8 stamp.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/16/2022 at 6:10 PM, Malacoda said:

You wanna ring the bell, Apollo? 

Ding ding!

On the road today Rock. Catch up with everything tomorrow 

[themagicrobot]

Whilst we are waiting for the next installment of this enthralling thread here is an interlude.

In 1959/1960 we finally obtained genuine american comics when imports were allowed. For the previous decade the UK had survived with black and white reprints from the likes of Thorpe and Porter, Arnold Book Co, Strreamline, L Miller, Atlas/KG Murray etc. One company (or was it the work of one person like Alan Class) that seems forgotten is Gerald G Swan. His heyday was in the immediate post war period when kids would buy any old rubbish comics. He repackaged this material for years within Annuals with odd names like Cute Fun. And until 1959 he had the licence to reprint Archie material.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread known as 471133-the-distribution-of-us-published-comics-in-the-uk-1959~1982 and not to be confused with any other threads here that may ask you to post your favourite Cap's Hobby Hints or covers that feature the colour purple.

Edited June 17, 2022 by themagicrobot

[Malacoda]

On 6/17/2022 at 9:38 AM, themagicrobot said:

Whilst we are waiting for the next installment of this enthralling thread here is an interlude.

In 1959/1960 we finally obtained genuine american comics when imports were allowed. For the previous decade the UK had survived with black and white reprints from the likes of Thorpe and Porter, Arnold Book Co, Strreamline, L Miller, Atlas/KG Murray etc. One company (or was it the work of one person like Alan Class) that seems forgotten is Gerald G Swan. His heyday was in the immediate post war period when kids would buy any old rubbish comics. He repackaged this material for years within Annuals with odd names like Cute Fun. And until 1959 he had the licence to reprint Archie material.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread known as 471133-the-distribution-of-us-published-comics-in-the-uk-1959~1982 and not to be confused with any other threads here that may ask you to post your favourite Cap's Hobby Hints or covers that feature the colour purple.

Interesting guy.  He predicted paper shortages during the war and stockpiled paper and thus became one of the few publishers to actually start a publishing business during the war (just read that). 

[Malacoda]

On 6/17/2022 at 9:38 AM, themagicrobot said:

Whilst we are waiting for the next installment of this enthralling thread here is an interlude.

Hi Robot - I was very much hoping you'd jump in on the DC PV thing & give me a right dressing down (from which I'd emerge a wiser and better man).  

Any thoughts on it? Cheers

[Malacoda]

On 6/15/2022 at 10:41 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

A further coincidence - the first ever DC UKPVs are the same cover month as the last DC 15c issues:

A strategic review of US pricing incorporates a test run of UKPV issues, possibly?

It's not bonkers, but surely, having been distributing via T&P with stamps for 12 years, you'd carry on with the stamps to see how the price increase affected sales, not randomly change another (cost-increasing) variable at the same time.  Also, keep in mind that the project was cancelled before any of these comics so much as smelled the fish & chips.  I think whatever explanation you have for this has to explain why it was initiated but then almost immediately cancelled before it ever got to market. 

 Keep in mind also that 'a test run of UKPV's' also means flipping from returns to new product. Unless DC were selling the new product to T&P at the same price as the distressed inventory, but selling newly-minted, newly-cost-driving, new product at the same price you sell the 3 month old, past-it's sell-by, second-hand, stale returns would be nuts, especially at the point where you're trying to get a price increase on the new stuff, not find ways to sell it more cheaply. 

 It's arguable that DC knew they'd be having X amount as returns going to the UK anyway, so why not mint them as PV's and sell them cheap to T&P to start with, because that's how they'll end up, but that argument is completely arse about face. T&P only got the super-cheap price because they were taking seconds and that was what they actually wanted (remember Dennis Juba: ‘we were able to buy at prices below the original wholesale price’).

Also, of course, you’re shooting down my theory-based-purely-on-coincidence with another theory-based-purely-on-coincidence, and there’s only room for one fast talking wide boy around here.

 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/17/2022 at 6:03 PM, Malacoda said:

there’s only room for one fast talking wide boy around here.

Unless you want to let this one in..............

He'll blag his way in anyway.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Albert Tatlock
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