The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Malacoda]

[Malacoda]

[Malacoda]

[Malacoda]

So what does this mean?  Makeweights?  Top ups?  Did Marvel agree a volume figure to be printed with T&P and then send leftovers / overspill?  Were they returns that came in subsequent months like DC comics?  I guess we need to check if it's everything all the time or just isolated incidents. 

I'll be back with a lot more data.  Don't flip around. 

Steve, I hate you.  You're sleeping on the sofa tonight. 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Malacoda

[Get Marwood & I]

6 hours ago, Malacoda said:

So what does this mean?  Makeweights?  Top ups?  Did Marvel agree a volume figure to be printed with T&P and then send leftovers / overspill?  Were they returns that came in subsequent months like DC comics?  I guess we need to check if it's everything all the time or just isolated incidents. 

I'll be back with a lot more data.  Don't flip around. 

Steve, I hate you.  You're sleeping on the sofa tonight. 

 

Christ, that settee is uncomfortable.

6 hours ago, Malacoda said:

Much as it pains me to say Steve was right, he was so right. He was beyond right. He was Steve Wright.  The reason there's a blip in the pattern, is that there is no pattern.  There is only blip. 

A broken clock is right twice a day, they say, and I usually manage about half that. Usually after lunch. 'Steve, right in the afternoon', they call me. 

Quote

There are cover stamps and pv's together all over the shop.  I will check some more examples tomorrow, but here's 16 months of Hulk to be going on with. 

Their is a abroad pattern Rich, it's just bigger than the section you've looked at.

@Garystar brought it to life for Marvel with his plotting exercise last year. The comics themselves tell their story. We know the following, for Marvel, because of them:

1. Cents copies exist in the UK
2. Cents copies with UK price stamps exist in the UK
3. UK Price Variant copies exists in the UK
4. UK distribution evidence starts from cover date 05/60

When we plot them out - and we have to plot hundreds if not thousands of examples to prove anything - we can see a broad Marvel pattern as follows (summarised by Gary somewhere in this thread):

• We start with UKPVs only
• Then we have our first hiatus in 64/65 where UKPVs stopped but were 'replaced' by stamped cents copies (timing unknown)
• When UKPVs return, stamped copies cease for those UKPV bearing titles
• We have a three month UKPV blip in late 1966, staggered, in which oblong and circular unbranded stamps appear on cents copies (timing unknown)
• UKPVs then continue alone until the next main 1967-1969 hiatus in which, again, the missing UKPV issues appear as stamped cents copies
• Those stamped cents copies continue this time, once the UKPVs return (end date yet to be established)

We've all pointed out that Marvel and DC were different - two suppliers, one receiver (T&P). All the above is factual, as the comics exist and tell the story when plotted in large numbers. The why is all speculation, still. Here's is the most logical 'why' for me:

• DC are happy to sell T&P their unsold cents copies
• T&P are happy to buy them and start doing so from cover date 10/59
• They sell well, so it continues. No one is fussed about spotty deliveries or missing issues. They sell
• Marvel aren't happy to sell T&P their unsold cents copies. We don't know why. Maybe they didn't want their developing stories (DC tended to be stand alone) to be interrupted in the UK by spotty distribution? Maybe they were grumpy.
• Marvel agree to print UKPVs instead. They probably cost more (or less, with no unsold returns process to administer?) but T&P agree
• Marvel do something else with their unsold US returns
• For reasons unknown, there are three notable gaps in the UKPV production for Marvel during the 1960s
• An agreement is made - at the time or subsequently - to replace the missing issues with cents copies, for T&P to stamp as they did DC. That works
• At the end of the third gap / hiatus, Marvel decide they will now sell T&P their unsold US returns on an ongoing basis, regardless of the agreed UKPV runs. Maybe they saw how well it was going with the DC books and they know that the true collectors will get their sequential UKPV one way or another. T&P are happy to do so too - they're selling regardless. 
• We don't know why T&P didn't seek an increase in Marvel UKPV numbers to satisfy demand, or abandon UKPVs and revert to the 'DC model' of stamping unsold returns (see above comment re the Marvel approach to storytelling). We don't know why it took until 1978 for DC to agree to ongoing UKPV production (after the brief 1971 two month experiment)

Returning to the Hulk examples you posted Rich, notice how the later shilling priced UKPVs have 5p on their 15c cousin copies. That implies that they were distributed later than their sequential UKPVs, which makes sense if they were US returns. 

In summary, the comics themselves tell a story, individually and collectively, and we can establish facts and broad patterns. And we can then speculate reasonably as to what was going on. The application of logic often fails though, as this was a crazy period full of oddities and with different practices by publisher. And we haven't even mentioned Charlton, Archie etc who themselves paint a very odd picture, jumping as they did from one distributor to another.

I love that we all get to pull it apart all these years later and I love what the comics themselves can tell us about that wonderful period in comic history. But there remains a limitation on what we can prove 50-60 years later in the absence of reliable first hand testimony or distribution records. In my mind's eye I have the biggest spreadsheet in the world, with all issues plotted for all publishers. That would show some broad patterns, I'm sure. But my God in heaven would some of it seem obtusely random. 

 

[Garystar]

@Malacoda As @Get Marwood & Isays I plotted the main marvel titles from first distribution to oct 1971 primarily to see if there was a pattern in T&P numbers. I noticed that during the first two periods of UKPVs there were very few stamped Marvels - not none but very few. However during the third period of UKPVs starting April 1969 this pattern was broken and there were an abundance of stamped copies alongside UKPVs. 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

14 minutes ago, Garystar said:

@Malacoda As @Get Marwood & Isays I plotted the main marvel titles from first distribution to oct 1971 primarily to see if there was a pattern in T&P numbers. I noticed that during the first two periods of UKPVs there were very few stamped Marvels - not none but very few. However during the third period of UKPVs starting April 1969 this pattern was broken and there were an abundance of stamped copies alongside UKPVs. 

The few examples may have been late of course, found their way into a later unsold shipment

Rich, The Hulk is a bad title to use as it starts too late.

Look at the extract here from Gary's plotting exercise and you can see that the duality of UKPVs and T&P stamped cents copies kicks off from April 1969, when UKPVs return after their third hiatus:

I just rechecked FF #60-68 again and there are no stamped cents copies on eBay. From #69, they start up....

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Trying to plot it simply (zoom in):

 

@Garystar - does that look right? Our only unknown is to what extent the T&P stamped copies extend beyond the 1971 examples you plotted

@Malacoda Rich, how far have you gone in your ND work beyond those Hulks you plotted - have you identified a date around which the T&P stamped copies stop for Marvel?

 

[Malacoda]

1 hour ago, Get Marwood & I said:

 

@Garystar - does that look right? Our only unknown is to what extent the T&P stamped copies extend beyond the 1971 examples you plotted

@Malacoda Rich, how far have you gone in your ND work beyond those Hulks you plotted - have you identified a date around which the T&P stamped copies stop for Marvel?

 

I actually started at the end and worked backwards because I was looking at the duality leading up to the handover to World and then realised it just went back and back.  I thought the presence of both in this run up period could be indicative of a phased handover, but when I noticed how chaotic it was I got that sinking feeling that what I was looking at was exactly what I thought it was but for the opposite reason.  It’s not PV/CS duality starting up because of the handover, it’s PV/CS winding down because of the handover. 
I believe duality goes to July 1971, when T&P ceased distribution, with some comics ceasing duality in July (cd), some in June (cd) and some in May (cd) depending on on-sale date.  
I need to do more checking, but ebay is absolutely buggered this morning.  I checked my BB speed and it’s 105 Mbps so it’s definitely not me. 

[Get Marwood & I]

20 minutes ago, Malacoda said:

I actually started at the end and worked backwards because I was looking at the duality leading up to the handover to World and then realised it just went back and back.  I thought the presence of both in this run up period could be indicative of a phased handover, but when I noticed how chaotic it was I got that sinking feeling that what I was looking at was exactly what I thought it was but for the opposite reason.  It’s not PV/CS duality starting up because of the handover, it’s PV/CS winding down because of the handover. 
I believe duality goes to July 1971, when T&P ceased distribution, with some comics ceasing duality in July (cd), some in June (cd) and some in May (cd) depending on on-sale date.  

I agree on the duality dates, and that is also what Gary's chart showed.

Broadly speaking, and accepting the odd rogue stamped copy, did you think this updated table is accurate:

 

I wish the CGC software didn't compress it like that - zoom in and it gets a lot bigger / clearer.

Quote

I need to do more checking, but ebay is absolutely buggered this morning.  I checked my BB speed and it’s 105 Mbps so it’s definitely not me. 

Probably something to do with this...

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/489756-ebay-comic-categories-not-working/?tab=comments#comment-11784196

 

[Get Marwood & I]

Thinking on it, for the top two, Marvel had mostly UKPVs with two spells of T&P stamped copies, and DC had the reverse - mostly T&P stamped copies with two spells of UKPVs 

[Malacoda]

10 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Thinking on it, for the top two, Marvel had mostly UKPVs with two spells of T&P stamped copies, and DC had the reverse - mostly T&P stamped copies with two spells of UKPVs 

I look forward to you tying those two things together. 

[Get Marwood & I]

2 minutes ago, Malacoda said:

I look forward to you tying those two things together. 

 

18 hours ago, Malacoda said:

I agree.  I think TTA 62, FF 80, Nick Fury 14 and Silver Surfer 10 are The Unfindables. 

Cap 113, 115, 116, 117 Fury 13, Doc Strange 179, 181, Tower of Shadows 4,5,6,7,8 & COTL 12,  Chamber of Darkness 3,4,5, Am Adv 1 & 2, Astonishing Tales 1 and Conan 2 and 7 might turn up one day, especially Fury 13 & Doc 179, but those top four are not happening. 

I think I'd be upset if TTA 62 turned up now.  It's literally the single non D issue in the whole first 7 years of the MU

(Apart from the 66'ers, but that's different) . 

Some anecdotal evidence in support of those conclusions...

[Malacoda]

50 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I agree on the duality dates, and that is also what Gary's chart showed.

Broadly speaking, and accepting the odd rogue stamped copy, did you think this updated table is accurate:

I

Yes, it is, although there might be a slight leap there.  The last dual PV/CS are indeed July and they date from an on-sale date of mid April (13/4/71) in the US  but I'm not sure you can then say that makes the stop point in the UK mid July as they would have all come over on the boat together regardless of different release dates in the US.   Maybe Gary's not making that leap, maybe I'm reading that leap into his 'mid-July' and he knows it was the middle of July for some other reason?  Of course, it may be that the PV's came over in sync with the cover date month and the CS's came later, but again that doesn't support a mid July cut off.  I need to do more work, but I'd say cover date July 71 is the stop point unless something else is indicating mid July.  Having said that, Gary is extremely meticulous, so apologies to Gary if I've made rash assumptions. 

[Malacoda]

19 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

 

Some anecdotal evidence in support of those conclusions...

Can't thank you enough for staying on top of this.  I think the logic of looking at UK prices from dealers is sound (and potentially even sale prices on ebay, (though I'd want a massive sample base).  Not sure it works for 30th Century on this SS example. They have 12 in VG+ at £28.  It's hard to tell with them as they are fabulously strict graders, so either of those VG's could be a FN- somewhere else. 

[Malacoda]

while we're here, does anyone else have any evidence that the following were or definitely were not distributed in the UK: 

TTA 62, FF 80, Nick Fury 14, Silver Surfer 10, Cap 113, 115, 116, 117 Fury 13, Doc Strange 179, 181, Tower of Shadows 4,5,6,7,8 & COTL 12,  Chamber of Darkness 3,4,5, Am Adv 1 & 2, Astonishing Tales 1 and Conan 2 and 7. 

Much appreciated. I mean....very much!!!

[Get Marwood & I]

22 minutes ago, Malacoda said:

Yes, it is, although there might be a slight leap there.  The last dual PV/CS are indeed July and they date from an on-sale date of mid April (13/4/71) in the US  but I'm not sure you can then say that makes the stop point in the UK mid July as they would have all come over on the boat together regardless of different release dates in the US.   Maybe Gary's not making that leap, maybe I'm reading that leap into his 'mid-July' and he knows it was the middle of July for some other reason?  Of course, it may be that the PV's came over in sync with the cover date month and the CS's came later, but again that doesn't support a mid July cut off.  I need to do more work, but I'd say cover date July 71 is the stop point unless something else is indicating mid July.  Having said that, Gary is extremely meticulous, so apologies to Gary if I've made rash assumptions. 

I'm going by cover date Rich, on that table, which is the only thing we can be factual about date-wise due to shipping timings and all that. The stamped copies I've seen are cover dated July or thereabouts. 

[Malacoda]

4 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

• At the end of the third gap / hiatus, Marvel decide they will now sell T&P their unsold US returns on an ongoing basis, regardless of the agreed UKPV runs. Maybe they saw how well it was going with the DC books and they know that the true collectors will get their sequential UKPV one way or another. T&P are happy to do so too - they're selling regardless. 

Has that actually been established?  I believe it. but do we know it?  It also sits very nicely with the anecdotal evidence (from everyone who was around then) that you often found Marvel comics, especially at holiday/seaside locations, long after their cover dates. If they were stamped US returns, it would sync up nicely. 

[Get Marwood & I]

13 minutes ago, Malacoda said:

Can't thank you enough for staying on top of this.  I think the logic of looking at UK prices from dealers is sound (and potentially even sale prices on ebay, (though I'd want a massive sample base).  Not sure it works for 30th Century on this SS example. They have 12 in VG+ at £28.  It's hard to tell with them as they are fabulously strict graders, so either of those VG's could be a FN- somewhere else. 

It was the 'p's I was pointing out - all the surrounding copies are pence, only #10 had no pee 

[Malacoda]

1 minute ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I'm going by cover date Rich, on that table, which is the only thing we can be factual about date-wise due to shipping timings and all that. The stamped copies I've seen are cover dated July or thereabouts. 

Right, agreed, but then where do you get mid July from?  It's the 'mid' I'm querying.