Foolkiller is no Fool

[Red Hook]

I was approached by one of the principle players in the FF3 thread and presented with an intial query regarding whether I would be interested in working with said party to basically pre-screen scans, in order to pre-empt the kind of situation that has arisen over the past week. I would be paid to do a search for any scans that might be connected with a book that was about to be purchased or marketed and cause the kind of situation that revealed itself last Saturday.

 

I declined the offer for a variety of reasons.

 

One thing I would like to see come out of this, is for CGC to come to the collectors and finally listen to some suggestions. We've poured out dozens of them on the boards. Some great...some inane!

 

I think that when CGC made the choice to officially recognize the practice of pressing, they didn't stop to think that it wouldn't end there. CGC has provided, perhaps unwittingly, the dishonest dealer with every incentive in the world to try to beat the system.

 

Massage the book. Squeeze out the next grade level. The monetary rewards are so great, an honest dealer feels like a lumpkin watching the other dealers feed off the system and the buyers. As all the high grade books get pressed, it's natural for some dishonest minds to try to figure out "what can I do next?" You have one answer to that question with the two FFs.

 

From the many pms and emails I've gotten, it is clear that the CGC restoration team is vulnerable to being taken. (And please, no more committee-written responses, CGC.) It's also clear that MANY folks are disgusted.

 

I have a few ideas for CGC at this time.....

 

• I suggest that you immediately take the initiative...PUBLICLY...to start researching and comparing scans of any high profile / high dollar book that comes across their grading table. Start with pedigree books....they are the easiest ones to document. I also suggest starting a database of scans of any high profile graded books that comes to CGC for grading. And hire someone to keep an eye out. Go on the offensive. You're not going to catch them all, but in the end it sends a message to collectors and the crooks out there that you're aggressively on the case.

 

• I would suggest that you make more information about the roots of the FF3 and FF10 debacle available. Or realize that doubts are going to linger for a very very long time. By naming the comic book equivalent of Jeffrey Dahmer as the culprit in this latest case, nothing has been clarified and nothing has been settled. He's unreachable for his side of the story. I've tried, with no results so far. I would get Heritage on the case and have them make an exception regarding the paperwork on this one.

 

• I would encourage a more open relationship between CGC and collectors. The setup of Chris Freisen's business smacks of elitism, favoritism and secrecy and severely weakens the base that CGC was supposedly set up on....trust. You guys have got to start thinking outside the slab.

 

I've got plenty more suggestions, but I'll limit it to these for now.

 

Brad

[Fan4Fan]

• I suggest that you immediately take the initiative...PUBLICLY...to start researching and comparing scans of any high profile / high dollar book that comes across their grading table. Start with pedigree books....they are the easiest ones to document. I also suggest starting a database of scans of any high profile graded books that comes to CGC for grading. And hire someone to keep an eye out. Go on the offensive. You're not going to catch them all, but in the end it sends a message to collectors and the crooks out there that you're aggressively on the case.

 

Actually, this could be automated to some degree so that every book wouldn't have to be manually compared to an existing scan...

[*paull*]

Al and Jeff are both good and reliable dealers. They are two guys that I buy from with no hesitation if they have a book I want.

[skybolt]

Well I think that within the next month or so, Jason should come on these boards and state which books were purchased or went through the hands of Schreuder, and what the status of tracking these books with CGC is. He did mention in the other thread that he'll perform some investigative work to figure out the extent of this problem.

 

We already know of one other book (Showcase #30) that was caught by CGC and given a PLOD. If he comes on these boards and gives a list of other books that may be under suspicion, then perhaps some confidence may be regained in the process. If he stays silent after making a statement like that, then some poor collector, whose holding one of those books, may be left in the dark about it being trimmed. I seriously think that if he has some sales records with this Schreuder person, then he should make them public to everyone. That would be a real good faith gesture in my opinion.

[awe4one]

I seriously think that if he has some sales records with this Schreuder person, then he should make them public to everyone. That would be a real good faith gesture in my opinion.

 

Agreed. If he was indeed duped, he should come clean on all the comics he and Marc have dealt. It's more than a good faith gesture...it's the right thing to do...

 

Jim

[Red Hook]

That would be an excellent move from a public relations standpoint.

[Foolkiller]

This is why I say the problem is so much larger than one book or two books. You know it didn't happen once. You know there's a lot more books like this in the market. You know it's probably happened on books without scans, and perhaps have passed through different dealer's hands making it hard to connect the dots.

 

 

I seriously think that if he has some sales records with this Schreuder person, then he should make them public to everyone. That would be a real good faith gesture in my opinion.

 

Agreed. If he was indeed duped, he should come clean on all the comics he and Marc have dealt. It's more than a good faith gesture...it's the right thing to do...

 

Jim

[awe4one]

That would be an excellent move from a public relations standpoint.

 

Sure...but it's even more than that. From a collecting standpoint, someone is scamming various parties (dealer/CGC/collectors) with restored books. All possible books that are known should be revealed so collectors and any dealers can check their collections.

 

It's common courtesy and something I'd expect of any collector/dealer who's on the up and up. This isn't a business decision...it's a "watch your @ss" warning...

 

Jim

[Red Hook]

And that too!

[skybolt]

That would be an excellent move from a public relations standpoint.

 

Sure...but it's even more than that. From a collecting standpoint, someone is scamming various parties (dealer/CGC/collectors) with restored books. All possible books that are known should be revealed so collectors and any dealers can check their collections.

 

It's common courtesy and something I'd expect of any collector/dealer who's on the up and up. This isn't a business decision...it's a "watch your @ss" warning...

 

Jim

 

That's a good point Jim.

 

If Jason comes out with this information now, then it won't be such a shock if another book is discovered with trimming. If another book with trimming surfaces in a couple of months and Jason had records showing that he purchased this book from Marc S., then we have a problem. The excuse of him dealing with this crook Schreuder cannot be used anymore, since he'll be labeled as hiding the facts until or if they surface.

 

I think a month's time is adequate for Jason to gather this information and pass it on to everyone. This reminds me of the whole WMD issue.

[Foolkiller]

y'know what's interesting about the WMD issue is that eventually it was discovered there were no WMDs... just ones we thought existed based on the intel. We know there's trimmed books, as for the rest, who knows.

 

But anyway, really folks, this discussion in and of itself should tip you off that things are very wrong when we have to have discussions like this, and the confidence you can have in these books right now.

[Silver Surfer]

This is a great thread. I have been feeling much the same way and in the last year I have lost a ton of confidence in the whole business of high grade slabbs, CGC management, and dealers in general.

[skybolt]

y'know what's interesting about the WMD issue is that eventually it was discovered there were no WMDs... just ones we thought existed based on the intel. We know there's trimmed books, as for the rest, who knows.

 

But anyway, really folks, this discussion in and of itself should tip you off that things are very wrong when we have to have discussions like this, and the confidence you can have in these books right now.

 

Maybe revealing this information would be detrimental to national security.

 

I can just see the sales record sheet with a bunch of names and lines blackend out.

[comicwiz]

I had a long post written and then it got deleted by my computer -- so I'm just not retyping the whole thing again:

 

I already owned non-high grade slabs, so I'm only cracking 8.0s and 8.5s to be put in mylars. TomMurane makes a good point when he says a) books look better in mylars and b) to be sure about the archival quality, put it in a mylar.

 

The FF3 thread pushed me over the wall though to just dump all my slabs for now. I love Steve Borock and Mark Haspel and Paul Litch and I will use their service if I want to sell a book in the current market. But I have to be honest, I've lost a lot of confidence. The person repsonsible for the FF 3 isn't trimming this one book and sliding it by, it's probably happened on a lot more books yet to be exposed. Really, what makes this guy any better than Danny Dupcak? Nothing. We've all here and everywhere in our hobby villified Dupcak/Hammer... now it appears there's someone else out there who's letting greed get to them first and ethics be damned. That person should be exposed similarly, and CGC should, if they can investigate and know, pursue them with the same vigor they chased hammer/comickeys/dupcak. Failure to do that is a HUGE mistake. Because someone is sliding work by them.

 

I've been a defender of CGC for a long time in that human error is going to happen. I agree with that. But this goes beyond that. This is lessening confidence in the principle thing that drives the silver/gold/bronze part in that you can have confidence that the book is unrestored and is the grade stated, a universal norm if you will. But if you can see the book and agree/disagree with the grade, you can't detect the resto on your own. And I have lessened confidence in what they are detecting and not, since this dealer on the FF 3 has obviously figured something out.

 

At any rate, there's such a short list of dealers I trust these days, Storms, VanLiew, Platt and Vinny Z at Metro (only because Metro just has no need to lie, and I don't see Vinny as that kind of person) but for the most part I've known and dealt with those guys for years. They're honest stand up guys. If you do dozens of transactions with somebody, talk to them for hours and known them for years and years, you know about their character beyond comics.

 

There's other honest dealers, but I can't say much about them because I haven't dealt as much with them. But there's too many questionable guys like Muchin, Ewert, Greenhalgh, DTA and others out there.

 

I love comics and I love this hobby. FF 3 isn't what made me think all of this, it's the straw that broke the camels back. I don't want to leave the hobby, I want to love it again, but there are some signs of real, real problems here. The writing is all over the wall when you compare it to graded coins and cards. So for me, with the opportunity to grow more wealth over the next few years, it's time to turn away from comics -- it's not a good place to put money. I enjoy the hobby for what it is now, and enjoy comics purely for the love of the books.

 

It's sad to say it, but I'm just very turned off about the hobby right now.

 

WTF is going on with these boards???

 

I've written out a response twice only to have the server crash on me both times.

 

I just wanted to say...

 

Foolkiller, great post! I can relate to the way your feeling. Its one of the reasons I originally started collecting undergrounds -- ironically, although the circumstances were different, it was a decision primarily motivated by my lack of trust in dealers in the pre-CGC days, and the fashionable and growing trend of passing-off restored books as unrestored.

 

And although it sounds corny, I'm always saddened to hear collectors taking an exit from the hobby. Its understandable when its related to monetizing priorities (ie. purchase of a new home, marriage, car payments, baby), but not cool when its due to lack of confidence or trust in the hobby. Despite your decision, I hope to still see you posting here

[shrunkenhead]

I more or less agree with FK. I'm sick of all this discussion. With the whole Ewart fiasco, my feeling is that CGC's name and reputation took the biggest burn. I don't in any way mean that as an insult or an attack against Steve B and Co.; on the contrary, they have my sympathies. It's unfortunate that the dishonorable actions of a shadowy few have hurt their reputation and publicly called their skills into question. I feel that the guys at CGC have worked very hard to get where they're at, but what this debacle has shown is that restored AND vandalized books can slide through the system, and we don't know how many have.

 

But, there are still instances where I say CGC is better than pre-CGC. There are GA books out there that I'd like to someday purchase that run $1500-2500 in VG. Now, with a book like, we're not talking about chasing high grade labels. I'd rather have a potentially faulty resto check than no resto check. Though the bottom line is, even where some of those low and midgrade books that are so expensive are concerned, I will now think twice about buying----thanks to this whole mess.

 

As opposed to buying a CGC book from anyone without knowing its history, it may be best to buy raw from the few dealers who I have come to trust over the years.

 

This whole thing sucks.

[Foolkiller]

comicwiz:

 

I'm not leaving the hobby completely, but I need to reinvent my collection and perhaps strip it down yet again (I've done this before) purge it of any CGC books I don't intend to resell and then start over. There will always be books that I enjoy, and I will always love collecting comics on some level. That's just me. But I've got to find a way to make it fun again, instead of sinking any kind of significant money into it.

[FFB]

Why not?

 

Storage issues, books look 100x better in mylar, I'm not convinced the slab is archivally sound... I hate when I buy a book I need for a run and can't store them together because some are slabbed and some are raw. Never selling, so who cares if it's slabbed. Can't see the interior of the book to see if it's accurately graded, easier to carry a box of 100 raw books than 100 slabs, I'm sure there are many more reasons.....

 

Tom,

 

You forgot the most important reason of all - you can't read the damned things when they're slabbed.

[FFB]

comicwiz:

 

I'm not leaving the hobby completely, but I need to reinvent my collection and perhaps strip it down yet again (I've done this before) purge it of any CGC books I don't intend to resell and then start over. There will always be books that I enjoy, and I will always love collecting comics on some level. That's just me. But I've got to find a way to make it fun again, instead of sinking any kind of significant money into it.

 

This is a big part of the reason why I intend to focus on pre-hero books when I start buying again. Restoration isn't as much of an issue and ultra high grade isn't what it's about. These books have true scarcity, so there isn't the same reliance or focus on the numerical grade among collectors. If you own a mid-grade Detective #18, for example, you've got a super sweet, desirable book. If you've got a mid-grade Spider-Man #97, you've got a book that is a great read, but is nothing special from a collector's standpoint because they are a dime a dozen in high grade, let alone mid-grade.

[divad]

I was approached by one of the principle players in the FF3 thread and presented with an intial query regarding whether I would be interested in working with said party to basically pre-screen scans, in order to pre-empt the kind of situation that has arisen over the past week. I would be paid to do a search for any scans that might be connected with a book that was about to be purchased or marketed and cause the kind of situation that revealed itself last Saturday.

 

I declined the offer for a variety of reasons.

 

One thing I would like to see come out of this, is for CGC to come to the collectors and finally listen to some suggestions. We've poured out dozens of them on the boards. Some great...some inane!

 

I think that when CGC made the choice to officially recognize the practice of pressing, they didn't stop to think that it wouldn't end there. CGC has provided, perhaps unwittingly, the dishonest dealer with every incentive in the world to try to beat the system.

 

Massage the book. Squeeze out the next grade level. The monetary rewards are so great, an honest dealer feels like a lumpkin watching the other dealers feed off the system and the buyers. As all the high grade books get pressed, it's natural for some dishonest minds to try to figure out "what can I do next?" You have one answer to that question with the two FFs.

 

From the many pms and emails I've gotten, it is clear that the CGC restoration team is vulnerable to being taken. (And please, no more committee-written responses, CGC.) It's also clear that MANY folks are disgusted.

 

I have a few ideas for CGC at this time.....

 

• I suggest that you immediately take the initiative...PUBLICLY...to start researching and comparing scans of any high profile / high dollar book that comes across their grading table. Start with pedigree books....they are the easiest ones to document. I also suggest starting a database of scans of any high profile graded books that comes to CGC for grading. And hire someone to keep an eye out. Go on the offensive. You're not going to catch them all, but in the end it sends a message to collectors and the crooks out there that you're aggressively on the case.

 

• I would suggest that you make more information about the roots of the FF3 and FF10 debacle available. Or realize that doubts are going to linger for a very very long time. By naming the comic book equivalent of Jeffrey Dahmer as the culprit in this latest case, nothing has been clarified and nothing has been settled. He's unreachable for his side of the story. I've tried, with no results so far. I would get Heritage on the case and have them make an exception regarding the paperwork on this one.

 

• I would encourage a more open relationship between CGC and collectors. The setup of Chris Freisen's business smacks of elitism, favoritism and secrecy and severely weakens the base that CGC was supposedly set up on....trust. You guys have got to start thinking outside the slab.

 

I've got plenty more suggestions, but I'll limit it to these for now.

 

Brad

 

Well said, Brad - I concur wholeheartedly.

[OldGuy]

Why not?

 

Storage issues, books look 100x better in mylar, I'm not convinced the slab is archivally sound... I hate when I buy a book I need for a run and can't store them together because some are slabbed and some are raw. Never selling, so who cares if it's slabbed. Can't see the interior of the book to see if it's accurately graded, easier to carry a box of 100 raw books than 100 slabs, I'm sure there are many more reasons.....

 

Tom,

 

You forgot the most important reason of all - you can't read the damned things when they're slabbed.

 

That's why I crack em!