The Creation of Spider-man's Costume 0

[Prince Namor]

For a few years now, there's been a thought process that the idea for Spider-man's costume (one of the GREAT superhero costume's ever created) was stolen from a Ben Cooper Halloween costume design from 1954. The NYPost (yeah, go figure) even did a story a few years ago called 'The Billion Dollar Spider-man Cover Up!'.

Given that the location of the business was 10 miles from Marvel's offices and EIGHT YEARS prior to the creation of Spider-man... I mean, it COULD have been an inspiration. Maybe an long uptapped memory that surfaced...

[Prince Namor]

Not long after it came out, Ben Cooper changed the design of it to a web face. I guess it cut costs or made it more 'spiderly'. Thank goodness Ditko wasn't influenced by THAT look. Wait a minute... maybe...

(That's a picture of it next to the licensed Spider-man costume from the early 60's.)

 

[Prince Namor]

Lately I've been reading this cool Eric Stanton book (for research purposes of course) about his work as a fetish artist. Stanton was one of the most popular underground fetish artists of his time, specializing in bondage, and he shared a studio with Steve Ditko for 10 years, from 1958 to 1968.

[Prince Namor]

It's said that Ditko's use of a full mask was unique to superheroes (and it was), but this was something that Stanton had been familiar with for years in the bondage world, and had drawn himself numerous times. Was THIS the real influence on Spider-man's costume?

Laugh, but... there's more...

[Prince Namor]

By this point, it's pretty well known that Ditko and Stanton discussed ideas, shared ideas, and even inked each others work to help the other out. Stanton even had a infamous lead character named 'Sweeter Gwen', who may've been (in name only, I'm guessing) an inspiration for Pete's own Gwen Stacy. 

[Prince Namor]

Most certainly Stanton would've had copies of Exotique around, a Fetish Digest Magazine that ran from 1955-1959. Most of the people who collected what was available in the underground genre they liked, usually collected everything available in it. Which wasn't all that much. And most likely Stanton would've had these.

Well, considering Sweeter Gwen was published in some of them, for sure he would've had them around.

Is it any less of a stretch to say that THIS could have influence the creation of Spider-man's costume, than a Halloween costume did from a few years earlier?

Edited December 9, 2020 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

Strangely enough, right around the same time as Ditko would've been working on Amazing Fantasy #15, Stanton had a story called 'Black Widow Sorority' featuring THIS interesting character... good thing he didn't influence membership into the Avengers! Again, is it any less of a stretch to say that THIS could have influenced the creation of Spider-man's costume, than a Halloween costume did from a few years earlier?

I'd show you more, but... probably pressing my luck with some of these as it is. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

In those early days, Ditko didn't always have Spidey use his web as a net, but rather as a rope - to tie the bad guys up. In fact, Spidey, regularly liked to suspend bad guys from the ground, after capturing them, hanging them from a street light. Suspension bondage is of course one of the more popular forms of the fetish.

 

 

[alexgross.com]

fascinating stuff! did stanton ever weigh in on this before he died? it seems clear that something was at least gestating there in ditko's head for awhile before AF15 was made.

 

[lordbyroncomics]

I have always believed that Ditko was subconsciously influenced by the Ben Cooper costume and it would have been against his Objectivist principles to consciously "borrow" anything. The work he assisted Stanton with is really interesting but I think we read too much into it that specific characters or stories from the bondage work outwardly influenced things about Spider-Man. In regards to what alexgross asked above, I believe I remember Stanton's children talking about it in an interview a few years back vaguely. I do know of an interview with Stanton from the 1980s' where he downplayed anything, gave Ditko the credit, but did say that he suggested that the wrist shooters be able to project restrictive webbing on criminals or enemies and not just create webs to swing from. I can't place what year it's from but I'm sure it's cited in that book (which has been on my wishlist for a while).

[Spider-Variant]

Great research and info by all, especially the OP.  Thanks for sharing.

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, www.alexgross.com said:

fascinating stuff! did stanton ever weigh in on this before he died? it seems clear that something was at least gestating there in ditko's head for awhile before AF15 was made.

 

From the book:

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, wisbyron said:

I have always believed that Ditko was subconsciously influenced by the Ben Cooper costume and it would have been against his Objectivist principles to consciously "borrow" anything.

Ditko wouldn't really become an Objectivist until about 1964-1965, so I don't think it would have played a part in that decision.

1 hour ago, wisbyron said:

The work he assisted Stanton with is really interesting but I think we read too much into it that specific characters or stories from the bondage work outwardly influenced things about Spider-Man.

For me... if I had to make a choice between a child's Halloween costume that was available for a couple of years almost a decade earlier... it had been off the market for 6 years...

or

Being influenced by another artist he worked together with EVERY DAY for the last 3 to 4 years (1958 to 1962) leading up to AF15...

1 hour ago, wisbyron said:

In regards to what alexgross asked above, I believe I remember Stanton's children talking about it in an interview a few years back vaguely. I do know of an interview with Stanton from the 1980s' where he downplayed anything, gave Ditko the credit, but did say that he suggested that the wrist shooters be able to project restrictive webbing on criminals or enemies and not just create webs to swing from. I can't place what year it's from but I'm sure it's cited in that book (which has been on my wishlist for a while).

I get the feeling he downplayed his contribution a lot, not only because he didn't want to offend Steve, but also because he saw how much of the work Ditko actually did on the book. He probably felt, and mostly, rightly so, that he didn't deserve any kind of CREDIT for what he'd done - he was just doing what the two of them had always done and chipped in with some ideas and inking.

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Comics Journeral returns.

[lordbyroncomics]

"I get the feeling he downplayed his contribution a lot, not only because he didn't want to offend Steve, but also because he saw how much of the work Ditko actually did on the book. He probably felt, and mostly, rightly so, that he didn't deserve any kind of CREDIT for what he'd done - he was just doing what the two of them had always done and chipped in with some ideas and inking."

Very valid, you're probably correct.

[lordbyroncomics]

8 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Comics Journeral returns.

 

I actually was reading some early 80s' TCJs I got as part of a bulk sale and they were very interesting to me. For one thing, then-Groth routinely vents about why comics can't be accepted by the "mainstream" and taken seriously and it really reminded me of several things whiny Joe Quesada often said in the early 2000s' along the same line and I thought "see? they really aren't that far apart" :P 

[Prince Namor]

27 minutes ago, wisbyron said:

 

I actually was reading some early 80s' TCJs I got as part of a bulk sale and they were very interesting to me. For one thing, then-Groth routinely vents about why comics can't be accepted by the "mainstream" and taken seriously and it really reminded me of several things whiny Joe Quesada often said in the early 2000s' along the same line and I thought "see? they really aren't that far apart" :P 

I met Groth at SDCC a few years ago, and I thanked him for helping me stay interested in comics. When the industry got all messed up in the 90's, it was TCJ promoting the likes of Dan Clowes, Charles Burns, and Love and Rockets (all heavily influenced by Ditko incidentally) that kept me interested. He was genuinely speechless, which isn't something you'd expect from him, and I took it as he doesn't get many compliments. LOL.

And yeah, those 80's TCJs are gold... lots of creators speaking their minds, saying stuff they'd never say in this day and age. And Groth still with a dream. The idea that mainstream comics didn't have to go the route of lowest common denominator isn't a bad one. 

[lordbyroncomics]

3 minutes ago, Prince Namor said:

I met Groth at SDCC a few years ago, and I thanked him for helping me stay interested in comics. When the industry got all messed up in the 90's, it was TCJ promoting the likes of Dan Clowes, Charles Burns, and Love and Rockets (all heavily influenced by Ditko incidentally) that kept me interested. He was genuinely speechless, which isn't something you'd expect from him, and I took it as he doesn't get many compliments. LOL.

And yeah, those 80's TCJs are gold... lots of creators speaking their minds, saying stuff they'd never say in this day and age. And Groth still with a dream. The idea that mainstream comics didn't have to go the route of lowest common denominator isn't a bad one. 

Oh, I agree completely. I only mean to convey that the 1980s' TCJs (I am familiar with the modern TCJs) were an often pleasant surprise as was the younger Groth's outlook (which understandably evolved as he got older and more experienced as a publisher who was sometimes sued, etc.).

[F For Fake]

Groth can be a crank, but I think he's done a world of good for comics, as a whole. He took chances, and in doing so, introduced the world to some of the greatest cartoonists who have ever lived. That's gotta count for something!

[lordbyroncomics]

12 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

Groth can be a crank, but I think he's done a world of good for comics, as a whole. He took chances, and in doing so, introduced the world to some of the greatest cartoonists who have ever lived. That's gotta count for something!

Completely agree. There's a part of me that thinks he's a bit pretentious and ridiculous sometimes but I can't deny his great body of work as a publisher and an advocate where the good outweighs the bad. I think the whole issue with Don Heck was if unintended, but Gary Groth himself has never tried to dilute himself or acted phony so you've got to give him that. I hope he's around for many more years to come.