True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee 6 6

[kav]

2 minutes ago, wisbyron said:

_{Spoken like a man who has never read dozens of Stan Lee interviews! But yeah, the feeling of fun in the Bullpen Bulletins is indeed contagious and who is to say that Stan didn't have palpable excitement when writing them? But I think you're mistaking the context of Stan's being excited at finally finding success and recognition for "indeed loved them"- that's a big difference.}

_{If Stan "loved" comics so much why does he try to get out of them as soon as Kirby leaves and go to California? Why does he convince the Goodmans to publish Celebrity Magazine in the late seventies which is really an excuse for him and his wife to be photographed with D-List celebrities? Why was he desperately trying to get out of them pre-1961 Marvel, with self publishing golf books and syndicated strips? (See Ger Aperdorn's exhaustive article in Alter Ego for more of this) Why does he say in literally every interview going forward that he never reads comics because he "doesn't have the time", etc. if he loves the medium so much? Stan was on a roll and WAS genuinely excited with the audience he was crafting. Of course, he couldn't craft that audience IF the product he was selling didn't deliver. Those Marvel Comics did deliver- if it wasn't Kirby producing most of the concepts and plots, would it have? Doubtful.}

One could argue he was trying to push Marvel into the next level-TV and movies and mainstream-which he did.  Which rebounded back upon the comics.  Even after the movies he was promoting superheroes with shows like who wants to be a super hero.

[lordbyroncomics]

17 minutes ago, kav said:

One could argue he was trying to push Marvel into the next level-TV and movies and mainstream-which he did.  Which rebounded back upon the comics.  Even after the movies he was promoting superheroes with shows like who wants to be a super hero.

You're right. I apologize if it seemed like I was just trying to argue. Thanks Kav

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Reading Bullpen Bulletins I dont get the feel of someone who looked down on comics but indeed loved them.  And involving readers with no prizes, MMMS and what not shows a real bond to what they were creating.  Not just comics but a sense of belonging.

Just for you. 

 

 

Jokes aside.  A lot of good points of view and information from differing points of view . I just want to thank everyone for their contributions.  Really have to love the community that this hobby has inspired and all of the Legends that help create it. 

[kav]

2 minutes ago, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Just for you. 

 

 

Jokes aside.  A lot of good points of view and information from differing points of view . I just want to thank everyone for their contributions.  Really have to love the community that this hobby has inspired and all of the Legends that help create it. 

I got a no prize from Bill Mantlo in 1977 when I discovered a six fingered spider man!!  
I believe my letter was printed.

[kav]

If Timely hadnt changed name to Marvel it would have been the Trippy Timely Traipsing Society!
@TellshiarMarvelmaniaCollector

Edited April 4, 2021 by kav

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, wisbyron said:

You're right. I apologize if it seemed like I was just trying to argue. Thanks Kav

Most of what Stan tried to do in Hollywood was NOT superheroes. Even those TV shows, he merely acted as an advisor (clashing with directors). And those horrible early movies he had little to do with. The book goes over many of his ideas and sales pitches (they're all in the Stan Lee Archives) and really most of them started out as completely non-superhero work. Really it wasn't until he started Stan Lee Media in 1998 that he began trying his hand at comics again - though other people actually wrote the scripts...

Edited April 4, 2021 by Prince Namor

[Hollywood1892]

10 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

Any prolific creator is going to repeat some things, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not.

Sometimes in the same sentence

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

14 minutes ago, kav said:

I got a no prize from Bill Mantlo in 1977 when I discovered a six fingered spider man!!  
I believe my letter was printed.

Wait so Spider-man killed this man's father? 

That revelation is bound to make those books go through the roof with these speculators.  

Congratulations on the no prize.  

[kav]

1 minute ago, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Wait so Spider-man killed this man's father? 

That revelation is bound to make those books go through the roof with these speculators.  

Congratulations on the no prize.  

Could have been hannibal lecter-in the books he had 6 fingers on one hand.

[William-James88]

17 minutes ago, Prince Namor said:

Most of what Stan tried to do in Hollywood was NOT superheroes. Even those TV shows, he merely acted as an advisor (clashing with directors). And those horrible early movies he had little to do with. The book goes over many of his ideas and sales pitches (they're all in the Stan Lee Archives) and really most of them started out as completely non-superhero work. Really it wasn't until he started Stan Lee Media in 1998 that he began trying his hand at comics again - though other people actually wrote the scripts...

Thanks to him, we do have the Transformers TV Show

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

2 minutes ago, kav said:

Could have been hannibal lecter-in the books he had 6 fingers on one hand.

[TellshiarMarvelmaniaCollector]

To illustrate how Stan Lee changed Marvel (and comics) I have this fanzine article from 1963, just weeks after Spider-Man #1 was released. I actually found the author, Paul Feola, and he gave me some great insights from an objective observer (and fan). It is one of my favorite articles and can be found in The Comic World News #6.

 

[TellshiarMarvelmaniaCollector]

Here is another article from issue #6. Stan was definitely one-of-a-kind, and if he never lived or chose a different profession comic books might never have continued or broken out of their childish stereotype that the public perceived them as.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

6 hours ago, William-James88 said:

Thanks to him, we do have the Transformers TV Show

Hasbro followed Mattel and then Marvel followed DC Comics.

With the success of Hasbro/DC's He-Man and the Masters of the Universe toy, comic, cartoon - it was only natural that Marvel would accept an offer from Hasbro to do the same. Not sure what Stan really had to do with it, as it was Jim Shooter running Marvel and Denny O'Neil and Bob Budiansky came up with most of the story and characters.

Maybe Stan gave a 'thumbs up' or something?

[Prince Namor]

6 hours ago, TellshiarMarvelmaniaCollector said:

To illustrate how Stan Lee changed Marvel (and comics) I have this fanzine article from 1963, just weeks after Spider-Man #1 was released. I actually found the author, Paul Feola, and he gave me some great insights from an objective observer (and fan). It is one of my favorite articles and can be found in The Comic World News #6.

Yeah, no question that Stan played a huge part in changing Marvel Comics (and comics in general) forever. But that couldn't have happened without the creative talents of Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko.

Stan Lee as Editor had tried to bring back some Superheroes previously, releasing 5 books in 1954 - Captain America, the Human Torch, Men's Adventures (featuring the Human Torch), the Sub-Mariner and Young Men (also featuring the Human Torch), but the reaction was pretty underwhelming. Young Men had actually kicked things off a few months earlier, but the full line debuted in January.

These of course were characters that already existed for Marvel, created by others - there was no Jack Kirby or Steve Ditko there to come up with new ideas (how many monthly Human Torch titles do you need?), but Marvel (Atlas) wasn't shy about milking Simon and Kirby's Captain America for all they could get. Unfortunately none of the books made it through the summer. It failed to generate any excitement.

The creativity just didn't seem to be there.

Meanwhile DC continued to pump out Action Comics, Adventure Comics, Batman, Detective Comics, Superboy, Superman, Wonder Woman, and World's Finest (Captain Comet in Strange Adventures was slowly petering out after a 4 year run!), along with the rest of their line. Within a year DC would add a Jimmy Olsen book, and a year later the new Flash debuted in Showcase.

Where was Kirby during all of this? Him and Joe Simon were creating new and exciting content for Crestwood Publications and selling millions of copies of Young Love, Young Romance, Black Magic, etc.

Of course he'd go to (what would become) Marvel Comics in the late summer of 1958 (as they were getting ready to pretty much give up on comics) and with his creative genius and Stan's editorial and promotional genius, set the world on fire and give us the greatest superhero universe ever created.

[Prince Namor]

7 hours ago, TellshiarMarvelmaniaCollector said:

Here is another article from issue #6. Stan was definitely one-of-a-kind, and if he never lived or chose a different profession comic books might never have continued or broken out of their childish stereotype that the public perceived them as.

It's interesting that you say that (and I really appreciate you posting these fan publications - great to see these!), because I wonder if he DID break comics out of their 'childish stereotype'. Even today many people think of comics as kids stuff, and maybe the movies have actually done more to give them credibility.

Here's Stan in a rare TV interview from 1977 (he doesn't correct the announcer who says 'the brains and creativity of one man' - Stan's already in full take all the credit mode at this point), where he doesn't really make the comics sound... less childish. Spider-man worrying about dandruff?

Don't get me wrong, Stan is incredibly charming here and it's hard not to like him, but why not present it as it really is? Like maybe: "Spider-man could have this very difficult battle with a villain, but can't manage to pay his rent for the month - whereas other superheroes never seem to have those problems. It relates to the things we ALL have go through." Instead he talks about dandruff, ingrown toenails, not wearing his galoshes..."

And of course his story changes again - "I started writing this way as a gag..." And some really bizarre angles: "If you present things the way they really are (as realistic) it comes across as satire.." "If Woody Allen were a superhero, he'd be Spider-man"... "He can shoot his web any distance, a building could be a mile a way..."

Stan doesn't sound like a fan of his own comics here. He makes excuses. He makes it all a joke. When talking to comic fans, he knew exactly what to say and how to promote things, but when faced with adults he seems... a little embarrassed about it all and justifying it with humor and a wink wink demeanor. 

But... My favorite line is when the announcer says, "Spider-man would fly over here" and Stan quips back, "How do you think I got here?"

He IS quick. And charming. And really I think it was THAT as much as anything that gave him the ability to win over others and get the Marvel name out there. 

 

[Prince Namor]

Stan changed the way comic companies interacted with their fan base*, and even though it took them 10 years to finally replace DC Comics as the number one publisher**, that slow build exploded in 1970. Right about the time a new generation of creators came in and Stan stopped 'writing' and Jack had left.

The sales may not have always been there during that time, but the people who DID read those comics, were passionate about them in a way that DC Comics and others just didn't get.

Stan's influence and style and ideas and charisma will be remembered forever. It's a shame he couldn't just see it that way and instead had to try and take all of that credit from others.

Regardless, his place in history as a cultural icon is secure. 

 

*though he certainly took his cues from EC Comics, who also openly interacted, had a fan club, listed artist credits and did picture frame covers

** I mean, in 1969 - 8 years after the birth of the Marvel Universe - their #1 book - the Amazing Spider-man still sold about 30% less than Archie and Superman (515,000/511,000 to 372,000). In fact, DC had 4 books that sold better than Marvel's #1 and Archie had 2. Next highest for Marvel was FF at #12 (after 3 more DC's and another Archie), Thor and Hulk at #17 and 18 (after 3 more Archie's and a Dell)

[Aman619]

you selected an awesome Stan clip.  So comfortable and easy going, dominating the scene.  quick and funny. No wonder the Herald Tribune guys listened with rapt attention to Stan and quickly ignored poor Jack back in the Marvel's early media interest/reporting.  Set the stage for all that was to follow.  Not blaming Jack, but if he and/or other artists were also in the room for that interview, also chiming in, the story would have been about a band of creators seamlessly re-inventing a new wave of comics.  Like the Beatles... they were all entertaining, and dint have one as the spokesman as the only one able to banter with the media.

So please dont find a memo from Stan telling everyone that the interview was cancelled, stay home!  : ) 

[Garystar]

In my opinion we do Stan a disfavour if we only think of him as an editor and a promotor. It was Stan who put the words in the mouths of all the characters we loved, it was Stan who created the persona of Peter Parker, Tony Stark, Bern Grimm, Matt Murdock, the Silver Surfer et all. It was Stan who created their humanity and made them “real” to us kids. It was Stan who wove all the titles and held the “Marvel “universe” together. I wasn’t around in the 60s early 70s but reading these as back issues when I did start collecting, Stan’s editorial created a sense that as a reader you were part of the Marvel family, you were welcomed and appreciated and the editorial was part of the attraction of Marvel Comics.

The Fantastic Four didn’t come from Jack and would have existed without him, Spider-man didn’t come from Steve and would have existed without him. I happen to think without Jack and Steve there’s a high probability both would have been rubbish and died on the vine but who knows what they would have been in someone else’s hands. We know Stan had a hand in the plotting of both titles and although his input diminished over time to somewhere between negligible and nothing he did none the less contribute. There’s a newspaper interview/report somewhere with Stan and Jack where Stan is vocally plotting FF#55 so Stan’s input lasted some time on FF at least, to what extent we may never know but it was something.

Was Stan lucky to work with Jack and Steve? Absolutely. Was he lucky to work with John Romita, John Buscema, Gene Colan, Neal Adams, Jim Steranko, Wally Wood (briefly), Barry Smith, Gil Kane etc etc? That doesn’t sound like luck to me, that sounds like someone who knows what he’s doing, recognises talent and knows how to focus it and work with it.

When Steve left Spider-man the creativity didn’t die. Stan recognised that John had different strengths to Steve and changed direction on the title, Mary Jane Watson (heard but never seen in Steve’s stories), Capt Stacey and the Robertsons were introduced and the comic became more of a soap opera – and became even more popular.

Yes, Stan became increasingly more interested in promotion and he worked extremely hard at that – attending colleges, lectures, radio and magazine interviews. Steve wouldn’t have done that, would or could Jack if given the chance? Stan was the voice of Marvel so its unsurprising he became the face.

I agree Jack and Steve deserve more credit, Stan used to do that in the early days and it’s a shame and a discredit to him that he didn’t do so more in latter years when he had a bigger stage. As fans we recognise Jack and Steve's immense contribution and that without them the Marvel characters we know today wouldn’t exist and we need to tell that to anyone who is interested enough to listen. However their credit shouldn’t be given at Stan’s expense, Stan deserves the credit he gets – it’s just that Jack and Steve deserve more than they get

Edited April 4, 2021 by Garystar

[kav]

Another aspect if you believe all the various writers did the bulk of the plotting/writing, is that any artist could write great so no particular artist was particularly valuable as a plotter/writer-they were a dime a dozen.  Without Jack or Steve we would have had some Bob and Joe and still had a great spider man and FF, or Leopard man and Fantasic Five, guided by Stan.

Edited April 4, 2021 by kav