Let's see your 'frayed spine' downgraded slabs!!! 0

[Galen130]

Hello, all!!!  This is my first posted topic here, so I'm thinking this is the correct place to post this 'issue' that has come up for me recently.  I'm looking for any and all opinions/comments.  Please keep it civil and no meme wars, if you can help it (I'm guilty of this too ).

I recently sent in another batch of 25 moderns to my presser (in case anything will benefit from a clean/press), then on to CGC for grading.  It's been about six months since I did this because of the increase in TAT's and other things I've read about here on the boards.  But I digress...

Last year, I purchased a bunch of the Alex Ross 'Timeless' variants...brand new.  The ones that I pre-screened for grading sat in my submission pile, and the rest I listed to sell as-is.  I finally got around to sending a few of these books with this current batch.  My presser looks them over to see which one's are press-worthy (as most pressers do, I'm sure), then lets me know what he found so that I can give him the go ahead to do his thing.  Granted, this is only one source, but he's very reliable and I've worked with him for a while now...I trust his judgement and information gathering.  He informed me very recently that all five of my Ross variants were a concern for him for grading because of what he says is described as a 'frayed spine' notation for a defect by CGC.  He confirmed, using a picture I sent him, what he was referring to.  Below are pictures of the same book that I decided not to get pressed and grade.

He visits his LCS once a week and local collectors there will sometimes show him their graded slabs.  He was shown a couple slabs of a cover similar to what is below, and he stated that both of them were graded around an 8.0...with the only defect being a 'frayed spine' (annotated by CGC notes).  For those of us who try to perfect our grading skills, and based on set guidelines for grading, comics with thicker, cardstock-type covers will show some light wear on the spine (for lack of a better explanation) because of the thickness of the paper.  This would normally be considered a production issue and CGC doesn't 'ding' comics for it (generally).  These Ross variants don't have those kinds of covers, yet they are showing the same kind of issue along the spine...which unfortunately can break the ink on the image.

I'm wondering if anyone else here on the boards has come across this issue with these same Ross variants, or possibly other comics.  This is the first time I've heard of a 'frayed spine' defect, according to CGC standards.  Could this be a fluke, or new grading criteria?  Until I know for sure, 90% of my Timeless variants will NOT be graded because they all have this issue to one degree or another.

My apologies if I'm long-winded, but I believe in details in order to forego any possible questions.  Still, any questions are welcome and I will do my best to answer them.  I'm hoping to learn something with this post, so please share anything you may know.  Please look at the provided pictures...hopefully they show precisely what I'm referring to.  I can always take more pics.  Thanks a lot for your time!!! 

UPDATE!!!  I should also inform you that a bunch of these Ross variant books are thicker books...48-page plus, so sometimes this kind of spine issue is acceptable for higher grades.  The rest are your standard-page comics, with the same issue as stated above. 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Galen130

[Galen130]

Thanks, Tony.  I agree.  It's unfortunate, but I have slim hopes that this is a fluke.  I won't risk it until I know more. 

[Tony S]

Book is Star Wars: Heir to the Empire 1. Graded about a month ago. Only grading note is "frayed spine".  Book looks "minty" otherwise - 9.6/9.8 

Obviously this is a defect. But I've not seen the "frayed spine" note before on the modern books that are prone to this.color flaking/rubbing along the spine.  

So like Galen130, curious if this is something CGC graders will be looking at more closely and not considering a production/printing defect going forward. 

 

 

[Galen130]

Thanks for that example, Tony.

What do others think?  Is this something new for grading by CGC, a production issue, or possible a 'gradeable' defect noted as something else...maybe in the past??

[Get Marwood & I]

55 minutes ago, Galen130 said:

Thanks for that example, Tony.

What do others think?  Is this something new for grading by CGC, a production issue, or possible a 'gradeable' defect noted as something else...maybe in the past??

I may have this wrong Galen, but I always had it in my head that CGC gave this phenomenon a pass on moderns, citing it as a part of the production process. The argument went something along the lines that if they did take heed of it, then pretty much every modern manufactured that way would be downgraded and 9.8's etc would not be possible. 

I had that in my head because I recall disagreeing with it - colour breaking fraying clearly exists, and can't be ignored just because the paper used lends itself to that outcome in the binding process. I'll be interested to see if my memory serves, or whether I've got that completely wrong. But if CGC have made a policy change, and decided to stop ignoring it, then that may cause a ruction or two when people send previously highly graded books in for regarding I would imagine.

[Get Marwood & I]

6 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

The argument went something along the lines that if they did take heed of it, then pretty much every modern manufactured that way would be downgraded and 9.8's etc would not be possible.

A bit more on that, my recollection was that pretty much every ASM I purchased new from the shop had that spine fraying for a period around the 500-600 issue range - example below:

If that was the case - every copy was affected as it was part of the production process of the time - then it would be nigh on impossible for a 9.8, 9.9 etc to exist - and that would have killed the submission process, so CGC decided to give it a pass.

[Galen130]

7 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I may have this wrong Galen, but I always had it in my head that CGC gave this phenomenon a pass on moderns, citing it as a part of the production process. The argument went something along the lines that if they did take heed of it, then pretty much every modern manufactured that way would be downgraded and 9.8's etc would not be possible. 

I had that in my head because I recall disagreeing with it - colour breaking fraying clearly exists, and can't be ignored just because the paper used lends itself to that outcome in the binding process. I'll be interested to see if my memory serves, or whether I've got that completely wrong. But if CGC have made a policy change, and decided to stop ignoring it, then that may cause a ruction or two when people send previously highly graded books in for regarding I would imagine.

I agree completely.  I was under that same impression concerning this issue with moderns...especially the thicker stock cover paper and books.  Unfortunately, without knowing what we're dealing with right now, I can't risk sending in my Ross variants if they are going to get knocked down.  With the way things have been lately with CGC (not slamming CGC at all), perhaps newly trained people are noting this as a defect and it's getting past QA, or something else is going on.

Thanks for your insight!!! 

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, Galen130 said:

I agree completely.  I was under that same impression concerning this issue with moderns...especially the thicker stock cover paper and books.  Unfortunately, without knowing what we're dealing with right now, I can't risk sending in my Ross variants if they are going to get knocked down.  With the way things have been lately with CGC (not slamming CGC at all), perhaps newly trained people are noting this as a defect and it's getting past QA, or something else is going on.

Thanks for your insight!!! 

I don't submit myself, was just interested. Why don't you give CGC a ring and see what they say? Or post in the 'Ask CGC' forum to see if the position has changed. 

[Galen130]

3 minutes ago, Testinadicalicious said:

Also asked earlier this week:

 

The question was asked, but not in the context I provided...that CGC graders are noting this as a 'frayed spine' defect.  I've never heard of that, hence my initial post.  Could be something new, or not.  We'll see.  Thanks!!!

[Galen130]

2 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I don't submit myself, was just interested. Why don't you give CGC a ring and see what they say? Or post in the 'Ask CGC' forum to see if the position has changed. 

I thought of that as well, but I figured I'd ask others first to get their impressions.  Someone may already know without me having to 'Ask CGC'. 

[B2D327]

Do 9.6/9.8s of this book exist where there is no damage to speak of? Have other raws been displayed without the fraying? I ask because cgc could change the criteria for grading once enough copies with varying degrees of the flaw have been submitted. I could imagine the fold at the spine could take all kinds of damage in shipping where bundles get tossed around with no regard where others may have been moved around more delicately. I believe the number of submissions over the course of some time could determine whether this flaw becomes overlooked but that could take a few years where you would see an older 9.8 with the fraying and a newer one without it. If that were the case, I don’t think too many people would risk resubmitting.

[Tony S]

7 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I don't submit myself, was just interested. Why don't you give CGC a ring and see what they say? Or post in the 'Ask CGC' forum to see if the position has changed. 

My experience has been CGC does not answer "what if" questions about grading.  And the question is if CGC is grading down for this defect and if so what sort of impact it would have. So it's a "what if" question.  Also, people answering the phone are customer service, not graders.  So they couldn't answer even if they wanted to.

I expect if CGC started answering what if questions, they would scarcely have time for anything else. Plus grading is ultimately subjective and what the spine fraying actually looks like is going to vary from book to book. 

[Galen130]

47 minutes ago, B2D327 said:

Do 9.6/9.8s of this book exist where there is no damage to speak of? Have other raws been displayed without the fraying? I ask because cgc could change the criteria for grading once enough copies with varying degrees of the flaw have been submitted. I could imagine the fold at the spine could take all kinds of damage in shipping where bundles get tossed around with no regard where others may have been moved around more delicately. I believe the number of submissions over the course of some time could determine whether this flaw becomes overlooked but that could take a few years where you would see an older 9.8 with the fraying and a newer one without it. If that were the case, I don’t think too many people would risk resubmitting.

That’s why I had these books pulled off my CGC submission.  Until more info is gathered, I won’t submit those particular books.  Since I’ve never heard of a ‘frayed spine’ noted as a defect, I’m hoping there are some fellow boardies who can possibly share their experience in this thread.  Being aware of a rough spine is one thing, but I know I haven’t seen one of my slabs come back with this defect annotated.  I try my best to send 9.8 raws to Tony, unless it’s something I really want for my own collection...then I don’t care what grade it gets (more or less).  Thanks for posting!! 😊

[Get Marwood & I]

5 hours ago, Tony S said:

My experience has been CGC does not answer "what if" questions about grading.  And the question is if CGC is grading down for this defect and if so what sort of impact it would have. So it's a "what if" question.  Also, people answering the phone are customer service, not graders.  So they couldn't answer even if they wanted to.

I expect if CGC started answering what if questions, they would scarcely have time for anything else. Plus grading is ultimately subjective and what the spine fraying actually looks like is going to vary from book to book. 

You're probably right Tony, but I don't see it as a "what if" question. I asked CGC whether a big ugly UK price stamp would affect grade and they replied that it wouldn't as it was part of the natural distribution process. Some might disagree with that. I would expect a question along the lines of "do you downgrade for the type of spine fraying caused during manufacture during period X" also to have a yes or no answer - they can say "we don't, as it is a part of the manufacture process" or "we do" if they have (as this thread suggests) changed their stance and decided to grade what they see (colour breaking spine damage) rather than what they know (what caused it).

Only one way to find out I guess - @Galen130 - crack on mate. It was your thread / question 

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/forum/23-ask-cgc /

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Identifying the difference between fraying from handling, and extensive MFG defect like this, is not easy.

CGC will only accept it as a MFG defect if it is common. It seems like this may not be common for these variants, therefor it is held against its condition.

[Galen130]

1 hour ago, Angel of Death said:

Identifying the difference between fraying from handling, and extensive MFG defect like this, is not easy.

CGC will only accept it as a MFG defect if it is common. It seems like this may not be common for these variants, therefor it is held against its condition.

Yeah, that’s what I’d like to see...someone with any of these variants that were hit hard by this issue.  I may not find anyone here in the threads.  We’ll see...🤞

[Galen130]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I'm trying to find anyone who had a comic come back graded with a 'frayed spine' annotation in their grader's notes.  I still haven't seen one yet...hoping someone can share. 

[joeypost]

Never had the frayed spine connotation, but I am seeing more notes describing color rub, color loss and other issues with modern comics. Unfortunately the paper and inks being used are not really "color fast" like in the old days and can rub off simply placing a book into a bag and board. 

[Galen130]

23 minutes ago, joeypost said:

Never had the frayed spine connotation, but I am seeing more notes describing color rub, color loss and other issues with modern comics. Unfortunately the paper and inks being used are not really "color fast" like in the old days and can rub off simply placing a book into a bag and board. 

That's unfortunate.  I'd love to see a graded slab that shows this.  As seen in the pics I posted, I asked Tony to return mine....couldn't take the risk they'd get hit with a lower grade.

[joeypost]

20 minutes ago, Galen130 said:

That's unfortunate.  I'd love to see a graded slab that shows this.  As seen in the pics I posted, I asked Tony to return mine....couldn't take the risk they'd get hit with a lower grade.

Immortal Hulk 1 is notorious for this issue. Mainly back cover color rub.