Who sold all of that Silver Age Original Artwork from Marvel? 3 3

[Prince Namor]

As much as I have researched the history of Marvel Comics... I never really knew about THIS story that has apparently been told for many years that I recently read online: Bob Beerbohm* claims to have bought Original Art Silver Age Marvel pages from Marv Wolfman and Len Wein at the 1969 World Con in St. Louis. THEY claimed they were saving the art from being thrown away. Marvel didn't start returning art until 1974, and even then that was primarily work done from that point on, though Kirby was able to get back a small percentage of his earlier work. So what happened to all of that 60's artwork?

The thought process has always been: who had ACCESS to those 1000's of pages that went missing during that time period and who could have gotten them into the hands of Marv and Len to sell? Come to find out Roy Thomas was at the same convention... so there are those who are starting to wonder... 

It's all conjecture of course, but Beerbohm swears it went down the way he says it did and even adds:

"I have told truth for decades now who I bought all that comic book art at the 1969 St Louis World Con. In all these decades neither Marv or Len ever came up at me calling me a liar. An innocent man would say, "Beerbohm, shut the f##k up..." and go from there. Never once, Nada.

The NEW piece of data I never knew until this year 2021 was Roy Thomas was at the same World Con. And the three of them did a comics panel there together.

That surely is not a coincidence."

I know this may infuriate some people here who see anyone that wrote or drew a comic they read when they were 13 to be a saint beyond reproach, and I'm not making a definitive statement either way... I just found it interesting to hear and thought I'd share.

 

Note: Full disclosure - I'm NOT a fan of Roy, who has done more to push Stan's BS 'history' than anyone else alive. Still not saying he DID this, but it does make you wonder.

 

*Somewhat infamous on these boards, but certainly someone who has been around the business for a long time and seen and experienced a lot of the history of this hobby.

[MattTheDuck]

It's odd that Thomas would choose two DC employees to "save" Marvel original art.  But maybe the hope there was to hide the trail.

[rexinnih]

Interesting, always wondered where art for sale comes from and love to hear the origins whether with a sordid background or not. 

[kav]

what was the feeling about OA back then?  wasn it considered worthless and disposable?  Did the artists even want it?  

[Buzzetta]

Some was sold:

https://www.comicsbeat.com/marvel-sold-original-art-in-1973/

 

Some was stolen:

http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/mystery-of-missing-box-of-marve.html/

 

Some was thrown away:

https://www.twomorrows.com/kirby/articles/19stolen.html

 

Personally I think that Bechara has it all and just doesn't want to tell us. 

And again, there are quite a few of us that understand what 'work for hire' actually is.  Kirby and the rest CHOSE to enter a field in art where their publisher owned everything they did and all intellectual property.  If they regret doing that then go find another job or pump gas.   Just as you are tire of hearing the Stan Lee created everything song and dance from Marvel, which I agree they do push a bit much, I have no remorse for any of the artists who believe they should receive royalties for what they created.  

 

[Buzzetta]

I am trying to find the four page article that I once had saved on the old computer... detailing where the art went.  It involved the warehouse and things getting stolen and destroyed.

[Prince Namor]

Unlike what straight out liars like Jim Shooter try to say, artists have always wanted their original art back. They just never had a say in it, and just had to accept it. There was already a rabid fan base in place even in 1969, with some people interested in buying it. I don't know about 1969, but I remember seeing a picture of Jim Starlin in the mid-70's with a sign at a show selling pages for $25 each - which may not sound like much now, but adjusted for inflation would be about $180 (in 1969) or $125 (in 1975)... the average new car was $3400 in 1969...

Marvel's stance was always that they needed it for reprints, but the fans knew... and Roy was a fan. Len was a fan. Marv was a fan. They were the new wave of creators who grew up fans of comics coming into the industry.

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

From the 'some was thrown away' article:

'The Comics Journal #105 has an excellent and lengthy article about how Marvel treated their art between the early '70s and 1986. In short, it was stored haphazardly for years, but then catalogued carefully on a master list. According to the list, almost all of Jack's work - save some of the origin issues and much of his prime FF work - was still in Marvel's hands as of 1980. But by 1987, when Jack's art was returned, thousands of pages were gone. What happened? 

The specifics are hard to determine. Generally speaking, a lot of stuff was stolen. There are a couple of factors at play - first, several people inform me that the master list was wildly inaccurate. If it said, for instance, that an envelope contained 22 pages of X-Men #4, it might not really have that at all. Next, the art was beginning to be recognized as valuable. As the price of comics went up, so did interest in art. Frankly, there were some flat-out unscrupulous people working in the office who helped themselves when the opportunity presented itself. 

Though accusations are rampant - if you were within a hundred yards of Marvel's offices before 1986, someone somewhere swears you have FF #1 pages on your living room wall - no bombs will be lobbed today. Instead, I'll tell you what many people have told me. During Kirby's negotiations, his art was ordered moved from its warehouse - located at 16 West 22nd Street, according to The Comics Journal - and into a storage area at Marvel's offices. Several people emphasize how close this area was to the elevator, meaning a clean getaway. Shortly thereafter, art by Kirby and Ditko that was previously on Marvel's master list began showing up at New York conventions for $40-60 a page. Though Marvel was asked to step in and get the art back, they claimed that they didn't have an accurate list of their holdings, and so couldn't prove the art was in fact stolen.'

[Prince Namor]

Kirby got back 1900 pages from Marvel after years of going back and forth on this (the original offer Marvel made was for 88 pages!).

In 1962 alone he did 1,158 pages of work...

[Buzzetta]

6 minutes ago, Prince Namor said:

Kirby got back 1900 pages from Marvel after years of going back and forth on this (the original offer Marvel made was for 88 pages!).

In 1962 alone he did 1,158 pages of work...

I would not have given him a single page. 

 

[kav]

32 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

I would not have given him a single page. 

 

I have to agree.  for years he worked without any agreement to get his pages back.  He agreed to that.  Suddenly the value explodes and he wanted it all back.  Nope.
Between 'stolen' and 'destroyed' I have to choose stolen as the better option.

[Buzzetta]

36 minutes ago, kav said:

I have to agree.  for years he worked without any agreement to get his pages back.  He agreed to that.  Suddenly the value explodes and he wanted it all back.  Nope.
Between 'stolen' and 'destroyed' I have to choose stolen as the better option.

I can understand if they amended his contract or that they made a peace offering in the fear that he would jump to DC permanently if they felt he was still a draw.  Personally, I would have let him go to DC and do whatever he wanted to do and find new talent.   There is ALWAYS new talent.    As far as what Marvel did in giving some of it back, I kind of get it but not entirely.

I was watching a documentary on Shawn Michaels on A&E.  Some of those have been actually very good btw.  Anyway, when Michael Shawn Hickenbottom hurt his back and said he could never wrestle again, McMahon paid him $750,000 a year after Wrestemania 14 even though he was not working "in compensation".  However the reality was that while Hickenbottom stayed home, Vince inserted a non-compete clause so he would not jump to WCW and Turner / Time Warner who Vince McMahon was still losing the Monday night wars to.  That made sense because if the character of Shawn Michaels showed up on WCW TV Vince knew that it would be another nail in the coffin in the WWE / WWF.  Once Vince bought WCW, Michael Shawn Hickenbottom was miraculously healed and could wrestle again. . Vince had no need to continue paying him now that he owned WCW.  ( @jaybuck43, correct me if I am wrong here and add if necessary.)

Marvel was never in a position where they would 'lose' to DC.  While Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were probably the top three well known and marketable characters of all time, Marvel's basically took up the majority of spots in the top 20 after that.  While DC had superstars, Marvel had depth.

I know this is blasphemous but the characters outlive the artists and writers.  Once created they take on a life of their own.  They may get a stretch of bad writers and artists but they are instantly revivable with new 'good' talent.   Kirby made the characters with Lee and neither were replaceable in the creation of those characters.  However, better writers have come along since Lee and better artists have come along since Kirby. 

Kirby signed his contract.  Now Kirby had to work under it. 

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Buzzetta

[kav]

4 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

There is ALWAYS new talent. 

Not only that but there is always way more new talent than you could possibly hire.  

[Readcomix]

3 minutes ago, kav said:

Not only that but there is always way more new talent than you could possibly hire.  

True, but it is also very easy to hire untalented “talent.” Liefeld got in. 

[kav]

2 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

True, but it is also very easy to hire untalented “talent.” Liefeld got in. 

many many untalented hacks got in.  It is utterly infuriating.  A good percentage of the modern comic artists all draw basically the same.  This also infuriates me.  Comic artists that learn to draw from other comic artists.  No formal art study whatsoever.

[boomtown]

The Wolfman and Wein story has been around for a long time. As many have pointed out, there was little interest in the art until it started to sky rocket in value. Most of the art sat around in large piles at Marvels offices until it was taken to be warehoused. I've read stories that it was given away to visitors at the office, used on the floor to cover leaks, stolen, etc. I believe it was Steranko who wanted his art back after publication and just went in and took it regularly. I wouldn't think it would have been difficult for any other of the artists to do the same, if they were interested at the time. I believe there were some interesting articles in Twomorrows Comic Book Artist mags that shed light on a lot of this stuff. Pretty sure that was where I read it.

[jimjum12]

2 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

I am trying to find the four page article that I once had saved on the old computer... detailing where the art went.  It involved the warehouse and things getting stolen and destroyed.

Here's the best one I recall ....

VARTANOFF INVENTORY 1980

[Readcomix]

3 minutes ago, kav said:

many many untalented hacks got in.  It is utterly infuriating.  A good percentage of the modern comic artists all draw basically the same.  This also infuriates me.  Comic artists that learn to draw from other comic artists.  No formal art study whatsoever.

Not for a long time, anyway. I guess there was a time when they did a fair amount of both. But swipes and cross-influence in comic art is not new. The lack of formal art study might be a more recent phenomena, however.

I saw Dan Green last week; he showed me a portrait that Jeff Jones had done of him. That led him to telling me how they met. He said he was 17 when he walked into the Marvel offices for the first time, where he met Berni Wrightson. Dan said Berni was there trying out for Conan, and when they got to talking Wrightson showed Dan his work, from which Dan was able to say “You’re Berni Wrightson!” Berni was surprised Dan knew of him and could identify him based on his work, so he invited Dan back to his apartment, where Wrightson was living with Jones and Michael Kaluta. So I guess artists have been influencing one another for quite some time.
 

And besides, I thought you’d appreciate that anecdote, and these boards are a good place for recording comics history as we are able to learn it. 

[kav]

4 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

Not for a long time, anyway. I guess there was a time when they did a fair amount of both. But swipes and cross-influence in comic art is not new. The lack of formal art study might be a more recent phenomena, however.

I saw Dan Green last week; he showed me a portrait that Jeff Jones had done of him. That led him to telling me how they met. He said he was 17 when he walked into the Marvel offices for the first time, where he met Berni Wrightson. Dan said Berni was there trying out for Conan, and when they got to talking Wrightson showed Dan his work, from which Dan was able to say “You’re Berni Wrightson!” Berni was surprised Dan knew of him and could identify him based on his work, so he invited Dan back to his apartment, where Wrightson was living with Jones and Michael Kaluta. So I guess artists have been influencing one another for quite some time.
 

And besides, I thought you’d appreciate that anecdote, and these boards are a good place for recording comics history as we are able to learn it. 

You can see the kirby influence in steranko and berry smith but their work is also starkly different and original.  Many of the newer comic artists I cant even tell the difference bewteen them.  It's just a clone style that makes me gag.

[Readcomix]

Just now, kav said:

You can see the kirby influence in steranko and berry smith but their work is also starkly different and original.  Many of the newer comic artists I cant even tell the difference bewteen them.  It's just a clone style that makes me gag.

THAT is absolutely a difference — influence is a better word for that era; imitation is too often accurate today. (And no I’m not bashing the Copper age — just like Kirby influenced those guys and they went in different directions, I think there’s pretty clear influence from Michael Golden to Art Adams to McFarlane to Jim Lee, then we got the clones, more or less.)