"CGC Submission Fee Adjustment"? 3 3

[Rhymenoceros]

 

**Updates on Pages 4 and 7**

 

I received this email at about 1 AM East Coast time last night (7/20). The submission just went to Grading/Encapsulating/Imaging yesterday.

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Dear Valued Customer,
CGC has made an adjustment to your submission. Adjustments are made when comics do not qualify for the tier that has been selected.

There are two possible reasons that a comic submission is adjusted:
1. CGC believes that the value of the comic exceeds the maximum value allowed under the selected tier; or,
2. The comic does not meet the requirements for the tier selected. (Examples: a non-modern comic was submitted under the Modern tier or the minimum quantity for the selected tier was not reached.)

The following adjustments have been made to your submission:
Invoice: _____ Line(s): 019
This comic was moved from the MODERN tier to the STANDARD tier. Your account was adjusted by $49.50

If you have any questions, please contact CGC Customer Service at 1-941-360-3991 or Service@CGCcomics.com.
Thank you,
CGC

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Now, Near Mint copies of the book in question (Kanan #6) have been selling for $100 - $200. I understand max tier value for modern is $400.  CGC graded 9.8s have been selling for $600 - $650.  9.6s have been $200 - $300. I didn't even think the book was a surefire 9.8. Seemed more like 9.6 at best IMO, but it came back a 9.8.

I've honestly thought declared values were to be based on RAW values up to this point. I can't find a single obvious source or CGC customer service agent who will explain how they determine value or where the data comes from.. only that it's their sole determination. So is it Raw values, CGC values from GPA/Ebay, etc.., or something else? 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Rhymenoceros
Clarity and title

[Ryan.]

What did customer service say when you called them? 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/20/2021 at 10:38 AM, Rhymenoceros said:

Now, Near Mint copies of the book in question (Kanan #6) have been selling for $100 - $200.

I understand max tier value for modern is $400.  

CGC graded 9.8s have been selling for $600 - $700.  9.6s have been $200 - $300. 

I didn't even think the book was a surefire 9.8. Seemed more like 9.6 to me. I can't see the grade yet online.  The ONLY way I can see this making sense is if it comes back 9.9 or 10, which is doubtful.

So, CGC 9.8s fall under the Standard category, but you think that "the ONLY way [this makes sense]" is if it graded even higher than that threshold?

[Rhymenoceros]

On 7/20/2021 at 10:01 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

So, CGC 9.8s fall under the Standard category, but you think that "the ONLY way [this makes sense]" is if it graded even higher than that threshold?

I just called customer service and part of what I asked was how they determine value. The employee would not give me a straight answer where their values come from or how to determine them. They couldn't tell me whether I'm supposed to go by raw values or cgc values in the grade I think it's going to be.  How are we supposed to determine what the value even is when the people grading the books don't make this clear? 

They just kept going back to effectively "we reserve the right to bump it and you agree to that by submitting"

The reason I said the "only way.." is that this instance does not line up with their policy as I've experienced it. To this point I've always thought it was based on RAW values. I can't be alone in thinking that. Now I have been told CGC themselves will not make it known where their assessment of declared values comes from.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Rhymenoceros

[Rhymenoceros]

On 7/20/2021 at 9:42 AM, Ryan. said:

What did customer service say when you called them? 

see reply ^ - Also the customer service rep could not tell me the grade yet or anything really other than they reserve the right to do this

Edited July 20, 2021 by Rhymenoceros

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/20/2021 at 11:07 AM, Rhymenoceros said:

I just called customer service and part of what I asked was how they determine value. The employee would not give me a straight answer where their values come from or how to determine them. They couldn't tell me whether I'm supposed to go by raw values or cgc values in the grade I think it's going to be.  How are we supposed to determine what the value even is when the people grading the books don't make this clear? 

They just kept going back to effectively "we reserve the right to bump it and you agree to that by submitting"

The reason I said the "only way" is that this instance does not line up with their policy as I've experienced it. To this point I've always thought it was based on RAW values. I can't be alone in thinking that.

"CGC will determine the current FMV of a collectible based on what CGC believes, in its sole reasonably exercised opinion, to be reliable current market information."

I understand your concern, but I would be personally pleased with a tier bump.

[Rhymenoceros]

On 7/20/2021 at 10:23 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

"CGC will determine the current FMV of a collectible based on what CGC believes, in its sole reasonably exercised opinion, to be reliable current market information."

I understand your concern, but I would be personally pleased with a tier bump.

I understand that of course... I would also like to be able to understand just what sources that exercised opinion comes from. If it is based on CGC values or Raw values. Seemingly no one can answer this.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Rhymenoceros

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/20/2021 at 11:28 AM, Rhymenoceros said:

I understand that of course... I would also like to be able to understand just what sources that exercised opinion comes from. If it is based on CGC values or Raw values. Seemingly no one can answer this - only that CGC has the sole authority to determine the value of a book

It's probably the same as grading. One day, your book's a 9.6, and it's a 9.8 the next day. One day, they decide that it's raw, and the next day it's the CGC'd value. They just had some shifts in leadership, and it's possible that it's changed things.

[SuperBird]

Well, if they start doing this for real, I guess I'll be forced to stop submitting. 

[Crops068]

On 7/20/2021 at 10:31 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

It's probably the same as grading. One day, your book's a 9.6, and it's a 9.8 the next day. One day, they decide that it's raw, and the next day it's the CGC'd value. They just had some shifts in leadership, and it's possible that it's changed things.

I have a feeling this is going to play into this more than anything.  Before it was a more obvious situation of them bumping items that in no way should be in that category.

Now the kicker is, what if the book was NOT over the $400 FMV when it was sent in and due to this wonderful TAT it is now?  Will they hold the line and allow it to stay under the old tier or are they going to bump it even though it is because of their own backlog?

In the end CGC has been doing themselves a disservice not bumping the books to the correct service.  Too bad them doing it doesn't also alter the FMV that was declared, because imo what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  They tell me it should be higher then allow me to alter that FMV to properly cover for this new tier.  Right now they do not allow that alteration to occur that I am aware of.

[Rhymenoceros]

On 7/20/2021 at 10:40 AM, SuperBird said:

Well, if they start doing this for real, I guess I'll be forced to stop submitting. 

It happened to me, so it's for real... I'll post what the grade is once I can see it 

[Buzzetta]

If it does not come back at a 9.8 which is the only way it exceeds the tier then you call back and demand that refund explaining that you graded it correctly and it was in the appropriate tier from the beginning. 

I submit books under the worst case scenario grade.  It is better to ask forgiveness rather than permission and all that. 

[carcrawfordfan]

This is what PSA (card grading) has been doing for years. I figured this was finally coming here. I hope it isn't widespread. 

[Gaard]

My opinion...

There isn't some CGC god, who sits upon some throne declaring what must be & what you must do. Call them back and get some answers. Demand that they explain EXACTLY why they are taking more money from you.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/20/2021 at 12:55 PM, Gaard said:

There isn't some CGC god, who sits upon some throne declaring what must be & what you must do.

There isn't!?

[Rhymenoceros]

On 7/20/2021 at 11:55 AM, Gaard said:

My opinion...

There isn't some CGC god, who sits upon some throne declaring what must be & what you must do. Call them back and get some answers....

 I've emailed and called and no one will tell me what sources or method they use to determine value - only that by submitting I agree to their sole determination of value. Awaiting grade and will update 

[Heronext]

Over the years, I've categorized several books into a lower grading tier where it could have gone either way.  This is accomplished easily, honestly and with no sinister motive, by a conservative raw grade estimate and/or internally justifying ignorance of certain pricing & valuation sources.  I've never had any of my submissions adjusted to higher tiers.

Frankly, the value of a book can rise (and fall) dramatically from the time a book is submitted to the time it's encapsulated.  If they tried to raise the tier in a scenario like this, I would contest the change strongly, saying it was such-and-such a value when I submitted it, it's not my fault it takes you so long to grade etc etc.  Likewise if I thought it was a temporary valuation "bubble", I would challenge their methodology/sources for the valuation.

I would probably ask them to justify the decision by citing specific sales or sources.  That failing or not being if interest to you, I would simply wait to see if it's a 9.8, and accept their adjustment if it is.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Heronext

[Heronext]

On 7/20/2021 at 1:02 PM, Rhymenoceros said:

 I've emailed and called and no one will tell me what sources or method they use to determine value - only that by submitting I agree to their sole determination of value. Awaiting grade and will update 

How much were 9.8s going for when they received the book?  Has it changed?

[SuperBird]

On 7/20/2021 at 1:21 PM, Count D. Monet said:

They've had this policy for 20 years.

I didn't realize it was something they enforced unless it was egregious. 

[Rhymenoceros]

On 7/20/2021 at 12:19 PM, Heronext said:

I think, over the years, I've categorized several books into a lower grading tier where it could have gone either way.  This is accomplished easily, honestly and with no sinister motive, by a conservative raw grade estimate and/or internally justifying ignorance of certain pricing & valuation sources.  I've never had any of my submissions adjusted to higher tiers.

Frankly, the value of a book can rise (and fall) dramatically from the time a book is submitted to the time it's encapsulated.  If they tried to raise the tier in a scenario like this, I would contest the change strongly, saying it was such-and-such a value when I submitted it, it's not my fault it takes you so long to grade etc etc.  Likewise if I thought it was a temporary valuation "bubble", I would challenge their methodology/sources for the valuation.

I would probably ask them to justify the decision by citing specific sales or sources.  That failing or not being if interest to you, I would simply wait to see if it's a 9.8, and accept their adjustment if it is.

The problem is no one I've spoken to or emailed is even willing to have a conversation. Essentially a robotic, scripted response that what they say is what goes, end of story. 

I'm going to wait to see the grade before reaching out again