"CGC Submission Fee Adjustment"? 3 3

[Larryw7]

On 7/20/2021 at 7:39 PM, Count D. Monet said:

How does that relate to a comic book policy CGC has had for 20 years? They're just going to be stricter about enforcing it now?

Oui Oui Monsieur!

[eddly]

Does this mean it will be mailed back to you on its own as it is in a different tier now?

Maybe it isn’t too late to ask them to damage the book a bit during the encapsulation process to bump it back down a tier.

[HotKey]

Now you just have to wait and see if you have any shipping adjustments 9 months down the road.

[wiparker824]

This is pretty dumb. If you want to be that strict on declared value you need to have much faster turn around times. Even if you knew your book would grade at a 9.8 (which is impossible to know) the 9.8 value could easily dip below 400 or above it multiple times within the 10 months it takes them to grade the book and send it back to you. A book that sells below the $400 like this one for every other grade but a 9.8 should not be bumped IMO. 

Also completely contradicts their instructions on how to determine value: “If you do not know the collectible’s current fair market value, you can assign a declared value based on the price you paid for the collectible (if purchased recently), a value you found in a price guide, the price a dealer offered to pay you for the collectible or other reasonable determining method.”

And if you bought the book raw recently you did not pay more than 400, also the raw guide value is not above 400, and there’s no dealer that would offer to pay you more than 400 for the raw book. Based on this they should change this language to say assume your book is a 9.8 and predict what value a 9.8 will sell for in a few months when we open your box.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:06 AM, wiparker824 said:

This is pretty dumb. If you want to be that strict on declared value you need to have much faster turn around times. Even if you knew your book would grade at a 9.8 (which is impossible to know) the 9.8 value could easily dip below 400 or above it multiple times within the 10 months it takes them to grade the book and send it back to you. A book that sells below the $400 like this one for every other grade but a 9.8 should not be bumped IMO. 

Also completely contradicts their instructions on how to determine value: “If you do not know the collectible’s current fair market value, you can assign a declared value based on the price you paid for the collectible (if purchased recently), a value you found in a price guide, the price a dealer offered to pay you for the collectible or other reasonable determining method.”

And if you bought the book raw recently you did not pay more than 400, also the raw guide value is not above 400, and there’s no dealer that would offer to pay you more than 400 for the raw book. Based on this they should change this language to say assume your book is a 9.8 and predict what value a 9.8 will sell for in a few months when we open your box.

Not really. It's a special for Playtech.

Also, not really. Those are guidelines for people who are ignorant to their collectible's value, and we agree to their terms of reevaluation should it be 'necessary'.

That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.

[namisgr]

On 7/20/2021 at 7:39 PM, Count D. Monet said:

How does that relate to a comic book policy CGC has had for 20 years? They're just going to be stricter about enforcing it now?

Agreed that they've always had this policy in place, and surprised it hasn't impacted so many submitters before.  I remember it coming into play after a submission was graded and before it was shipped.

I haven't submitted much lately, but years ago, they used to inform you by phone that you had books that had bumped up in tier.  It was a good call to get, because it often meant they'd assigned an unexpectedly high grade to a book.

Edited July 21, 2021 by namisgr

[wiparker824]

On 7/21/2021 at 8:24 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Not really. It's a special for Playtech.

Also, not really. Those are guidelines for people who are ignorant to their collectible's value, and we agree to their terms of reevaluation should it be 'necessary'.

That's gonna be a no from me, dawg.

This isn’t about being ignorant to the value of your book. If the value is used to determine replacement cost (which is what CGC says it’s used for) the replacement cost of the book sent in is below 400 in NM raw, it’s only above 400 if and when CGC grades it a 9.8 and encapsulates it. Up until that point it’s below that value. And being that it takes at least 10 months to get to the encapsulation phase how exactly can anyone accurately determine what tier to send their book in on? Please tell me how to not be ignorant to predicting not only a 9.8 but a 9.8 value in 10 months? Even if you agree with this policy there’s no way to accurately determine tier for your books upon submission if they’re getting this strict. In the past there was enough wiggle room that this wouldn’t be an issue, at least in my experience.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/21/2021 at 12:10 PM, wiparker824 said:

This isn’t about being ignorant to the value of your book. If the value is used to determine replacement cost (which is what CGC says it’s used for) the replacement cost of the book sent in is below 400 in NM raw, it’s only above 400 if and when CGC grades it a 9.8 and encapsulates it. Up until that point it’s below that value. And being that it takes at least 10 months to get to the encapsulation phase how exactly can anyone accurately determine what tier to send their book in on? Please tell me how to not be ignorant to predicting not only a 9.8 but a 9.8 value in 10 months? Even if you agree with this policy there’s no way to accurately determine tier for your books upon submission if they’re getting this strict. In the past there was enough wiggle room that this wouldn’t be an issue, at least in my experience.

You said that it "contradicts their instructions", despite the fact that they start off with, "if you do not know".

[sfcityduck]

On 7/21/2021 at 9:10 AM, wiparker824 said:

This isn’t about being ignorant to the value of your book. If the value is used to determine replacement cost (which is what CGC says it’s used for) the replacement cost of the book sent in is below 400 in NM raw, it’s only above 400 if and when CGC grades it a 9.8 and encapsulates it. Up until that point it’s below that value. And being that it takes at least 10 months to get to the encapsulation phase how exactly can anyone accurately determine what tier to send their book in on? Please tell me how to not be ignorant to predicting not only a 9.8 but a 9.8 value in 10 months? Even if you agree with this policy there’s no way to accurately determine tier for your books upon submission if they’re getting this strict. In the past there was enough wiggle room that this wouldn’t be an issue, at least in my experience.

Wrong.  The value you place on the book is for both replacement value AND tier pricing.  As to replacement value, it is for replacement value while at CGC and while being shipped BACK to you.  So using the value of the comic once CGC grades it out is not only intellectually honest (e.g. it is a 9.8 before it is put into the holder and after if it was graded a 9.8) but conforms to the reality of the value of the comic when CGC is holding it during grading, encapsulation, quality control, and shipment.

[wiparker824]

On 7/21/2021 at 9:22 AM, sfcityduck said:

Wrong.  The value you place on the book is for both replacement value AND tier pricing.  As to replacement value, it is for replacement value while at CGC and while being shipped BACK to you.  So using the value of the comic once CGC grades it out is not only intellectually honest (e.g. it is a 9.8 before it is put into the holder and after if it was graded a 9.8) but conforms to the reality of the value of the comic when CGC is holding it during grading, encapsulation, quality control, and shipment.

1. CGC doesn’t insure the book being shipped back to me unless it’s shipped back via USPS. So this doesn’t apply at all in 2 of the 3 shipping options they provide. And all CGC is saying for those that chose USPS is that they will purchase insurance for you based on the declared value but the insurance and any claim is actually with the carrier not CGC. They even specifically point out the following on the shipping page: “Important Note: Customer assumes all risk of loss or damage to collectibles during return shipment from CGC to Customer.”

2. The value of a book CGC thinks is a 9.8 isn’t actually the value until it’s encapsulated. Any insurance company would fight you to the death if you tried to assume a value for a book based on something that will happen in the future such as encapsulation.

[wiparker824]

On 7/21/2021 at 9:19 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

You said that it "contradicts their instructions", despite the fact that they start off with, "if you do not know".

They should start out with it’s “impossible to know to the degree which we are requiring” if this example is the new normal is my point.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/21/2021 at 12:41 PM, wiparker824 said:

They should start out with it’s “impossible to know to the degree which we are requiring” if this example is the new normal is my point.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/21/2021 at 9:38 AM, wiparker824 said:

 

2. The value of a book CGC thinks is a 9.8 isn’t actually the value until it’s encapsulated. Any insurance company would fight you to the death if you tried to assume a value for a book based on something that will happen in the future such as encapsulation.

The value of the book does not come from the encapsulation, it comes from the professional confirmation of the grade. DA's Mile High Action 1 gets higher offers than the CGC graded Action 1s because the highly respected graders who have seen it say it grades out as the best copy.  If DA puts it in a fortress or other form of encapsulation that is not going to change its value.  If CGC says the graders who have seen it are right, that is not going to change its value - it will merely confirm it.  Unfortunately, most of us lack the credibility of the folks who have seen DA's Action 1 and so we use CGC to confirm the grades on our books.  What gives the book value is the confidence in the grade, not the encapsulation and there are many instances where that confidence is achieved without CGC acting as the intermediary.  Insurance companies do not establish value by grading services, but by expert appraisals of the grade and the market value in that grade.

Edited July 21, 2021 by sfcityduck

[wiparker824]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:00 AM, sfcityduck said:

The value of the book does not come from the encapsulation, it comes from the professional confirmation of the grade. DA's Mile High Action 1 gets higher offers than the CGC graded Action 1s because the highly respected graders who have seen it say it grades out as the best copy.  If DA puts it in a fortress or other form of encapsulation that is not going to change its value.  If CGC says the graders who have seen it are right, that is not going to change its value - it will merely confirm it.  Unfortunately, most of us lack the credibility of the folks who have seen DA's Action 1 and so we use CGC to confirm the grades on our books.  What gives the book value is the confidence in the grade, not the encapsulation and there are many instances where that confidence is achieved without CGC acting as the intermediary.

You’re wrong, I wish you were right but it’s not the case when dealing with moderns like this. A 9.8 raw is not the same as one that is encapsulated with the label, regardless of what anyone’s initial opinion is on it, the slab matters to buyers for these books. It matters a lot less to a buyer of Action 1 assuming someone credible confirms it’s rough grade and that it’s unrestored. This is a horrible comparison.

[Rhymenoceros]

UPDATE:

Grades just posted. The Kanan #6 in question is a 9.8

While the initial shock got to me, after some thought I suppose I am leaning towards happy overall - since I only anticipated a 9.6 out of the book. Still, this has made me give a hard thought about the impact of CGC determining FMV apparently by CGC sold listings of the grade determined. Maybe for some this is not "news", but it was news to me as this didn't seem to be in line with the policy as I had experienced it in the past. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Rhymenoceros

[wiparker824]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:00 AM, Rhymenoceros said:

UPDATE:

Grades just posted. The Kanan #6 in question is a 9.8

While the initial shock got to me, after some thought I suppose I am leaning towards happy overall - since I only anticipated a 9.6 out of the book. Still, this has made me give a hard thought about the impact of CGC determining FMV apparently by CGC sold listings of the grade determined. Maybe for some this is not "news", but it was news to me as this didn't seem to be in line with the policy as I had experienced it in the past. 

As someone who has submitted many books similar to this and never had this happen in the past I can attest to this being out of line with previous experiences for me as well. There’s much more egregious examples people pushed thru all the time in the past on lower tiers, as someone earlier stated with the 9.6 ASM 101. What will be interesting is if this is the new normal or just a one off thing. 

I also think they should be much more clear in their wording if they are using graded and slabbed values to determine value so that their customers aren’t as surprised like you were.

Congrats on the 9.8 in any case.

[Rhymenoceros]

On 7/21/2021 at 1:20 PM, wiparker824 said:

What will be interesting is if this is the new normal or just a one off thing. 

I also think they should be much more clear in their wording if they are using graded and slabbed values to determine value so that their customers aren’t as surprised like you were.
Congrats on the 9.8 in any case.

💯% agree, and thanks!

[Rhymenoceros]

Oh, and for those wondering - all 25 books in the sub are shipping back at the same time it would appear, without splitting for the 1 they bumped the tier on.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Rhymenoceros

[NewWorldOrder]

I understand the frustration of the argument that CGC is in the grading business not the valuation business.  However, let's say you the customer submitted an invoice like I did a couple years ago.  I submitted 10 copies of the same book in the modern fast track tier.  

8 got graded CGC 9.8 as expected

2 got CGC 9.9 (I thought one had a chance)

Now if CGC didnt bump me then if the package was lost in the mail they were only going to cover me no more than $200, and or insurance.

So its a way #1 for them to make more money and #2 protect you as well.

Point being if CGC just mailed you back your CGC 9.9, and it's now worth considerably higher than $200, would you be okay conversely  with them not bumping you if the package was damaged or lost in the mail?  You cant have it both ways is my point.  

aka Your book is now worth this, and should have been submitted in a higher value tier.  More often that not is justifiable for them to do so, and honestly if CGC bumped all my books I am going to be up much higher than my CGC fees in the long run.  CGC wants to be paid for the risk of handling, grading, and shipping your books.  Think about it this way if a book is now worth $10k, and you only paid $18 to get it graded how does that benefit CGC for the risk of grading that book?  The transaction has to be worth their time for taking on that risk as well. 

I just submitted a couple books Express, I hope to God they get pumped to Walkthrough!  

Edited July 21, 2021 by NewWorldOrder

[sfcityduck]

On 7/21/2021 at 10:12 AM, wiparker824 said:

You’re wrong, I wish you were right but it’s not the case when dealing with moderns like this. A 9.8 raw is not the same as one that is encapsulated with the label, regardless of what anyone’s initial opinion is on it, the slab matters to buyers for these books. It matters a lot less to a buyer of Action 1 assuming someone credible confirms it’s rough grade and that it’s unrestored. This is a horrible comparison.

CGC's policy applies to all eras.