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"CGC Submission Fee Adjustment"?
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Started by Rhymenoceros,

123 posts in this topic

sckao

sckao

Posted
Posted
On 7/22/2021 at 9:35 AM, manetteska said:

This guy (NWO) always knows everything -- except when he doesn't, which is often.

I also enjoy the first sentence of that third paragraph:

"CGC does not assign values to collectibles. If CGC determines that a collectible is undervalued and does not qualify for the tier or services selected, it may adjust the tier and charge the appropriate difference in CCS services, grading and/or services fees based on its determination of the collectible’s current Fair Market Value."

Perhaps it's semantics, but how can one not assign a value yet determine something is undervalued using a determination of the Fair Market Value?

Not sure why this is not clear. They don't assign a value... they let the market decide Fair Market Value which creates a historical record maintained by various services, including GPAnalysis as mentioned before. That answers how they determine that a collectible is undervalued in terms of the fee after it has been graded when compared to the initial form entry (which is an estimate based on the ungraded state of the book in question).

The submitter determines their own declared value which does not change. (shrug)

Now I don't think it has been mentioned if they go by 12-month average, 90-day average, the last sale at the time of assessment, or whatever... but I hope it's something like the 90-day average which seems to be a reasonable medium point.

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manetteska

manetteska

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On 7/23/2021 at 11:10 AM, sckao said:
On 7/22/2021 at 11:35 AM, manetteska said:

This guy (NWO) always knows everything -- except when he doesn't, which is often.

I also enjoy the first sentence of that third paragraph:

"CGC does not assign values to collectibles. If CGC determines that a collectible is undervalued and does not qualify for the tier or services selected, it may adjust the tier and charge the appropriate difference in CCS services, grading and/or services fees based on its determination of the collectible’s current Fair Market Value."

Perhaps it's semantics, but how can one not assign a value yet determine something is undervalued using a determination of the Fair Market Value?

Not sure why this is not clear. They don't assign a value... they let the market decide Fair Market Value which creates a historical record maintained by various services, including GPAnalysis as mentioned before. That answers how they determine that a collectible is undervalued in terms of the fee after it has been graded when compared to the initial form entry (which is an estimate based on the ungraded state of the book in question).

The submitter determines their own declared value which does not change. (shrug)

Now I don't think it has been mentioned if they go by 12-month average, 90-day average, the last sale at the time of assessment, or whatever... but I hope it's something like the 90-day average which seems to be a reasonable medium point.

Assign has many definitions; I think they should just remove that sentence entirely.

Let's say you write down a $200 value for a comic. In order for CGC to say it's undervalued, do they not have to "assign" it a value > $200?

Also, CGC never said (at least I don't think so from reading this topic) they use GPA to determine FMV.

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sckao

sckao

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On 7/23/2021 at 9:51 AM, manetteska said:

Assign has many definitions; I think they should just remove that sentence entirely.

Let's say you write down a $200 value for a comic. In order for CGC to say it's undervalued, do they not have to "assign" it a value > $200?

Also, CGC never said (at least I don't think so from reading this topic) they use GPA to determine FMV.

My point was that CGC does not have to assign it anything in terms of a nebulous idea of its value. The idea is that they WAIT UNTIL IT IS GRADED... then look up what is now a historical average value for FMV. If it is high enough to bump it to the next tier in terms of the initial fee, then they have the option of doing so. (In many cases in the past, they have chosen not to do so.)

 

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manetteska

manetteska

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On 7/23/2021 at 12:40 PM, sckao said:
On 7/23/2021 at 11:51 AM, manetteska said:

Assign has many definitions; I think they should just remove that sentence entirely.

Let's say you write down a $200 value for a comic. In order for CGC to say it's undervalued, do they not have to "assign" it a value > $200?

Also, CGC never said (at least I don't think so from reading this topic) they use GPA to determine FMV.

My point was that CGC does not have to assign it anything in terms of a nebulous idea of its value. The idea is that they WAIT UNTIL IT IS GRADED... then look up what is now a historical average value for FMV. If it is high enough to bump it to the next tier in terms of the initial fee, then they have the option of doing so. (In many cases in the past, they have chosen not to do so.)

 

Apart from being pure presumption on what CGC does, isn't "looking up" a historical average for a specific book in a specific grade assigning it a value? Even if that value is a range or a threshold, a value is still put on the item. Perhaps I am missing your distinction.

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sckao

sckao

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On 7/23/2021 at 10:56 AM, manetteska said:

Apart from being pure presumption on what CGC does, isn't "looking up" a historical average for a specific book in a specific grade assigning it a value? Even if that value is a range or a threshold, a value is still put on the item. Perhaps I am missing your distinction.

True. You sound like a lawyer...arguing semantics.  hm

I concede your point. :foryou:

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CK-1

CK-1

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Posted (edited)

Modern is 45 days faster than Economy right now so what's stopping people from knowingly submitting pre-1975 books to pretty much get fast-track for free and also save on shipping?

Wouldn't be surprised if they would notice right at receiving, or just send you to the back of the economy line, but it might work.

Edited by CK-1
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Rhymenoceros

Rhymenoceros

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On 7/23/2021 at 12:02 PM, Count D. Monet said:

Jennifer kinda did.

Screenshot_20210720-170158.thumb.png.2a7

@Count D. Monet I think you've actually helped the spread of this information more than Jennifer just by reposting that screenshot 4 times in the thread so far. Thanks for trying to be helpful to those in the thread. Now let's see if we can get it somewhere the majority of CGC submitters will see. 

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manetteska

manetteska

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Posted (edited)
On 7/23/2021 at 1:07 PM, Count D. Monet said:
On 7/23/2021 at 12:50 PM, manetteska said:

Jennifer mentioned two websites it's useful for customers to use. Never said that is what CGC does.

Never said it's not what CGC does either :idea:

Yes, you kinda did.

edit: Ahhh, you got me; I read it too fast.

Edited by manetteska
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eddly

eddly

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I have really been fixated on this topic over the last few days.

On Facebook someone announces they just received a grade of 9.9 for their X-Men 4 (first omega red). It is still at CGC. I asked them if the book was bumped out of the modern tier. They responded that it was not.

On YouTube @etanickdeclares that he receives a grade of 4.0 on his Star Wars #1 which he knows to be an error as he cracked it out of an old red 9.2 modern slab. He contacts CGC, sends the book back to CGC to review it to see if they made a human error when keying in the grade prior to encapsulation. 10 days later it comes back as a 9.6. Did it get bumped out of the modern tier due to its increased value? No, it stayed in the modern tier. Certainly it would have been poor form to do so considering CGC’s error.

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Rhymenoceros

Rhymenoceros

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RECAP:

After the discussion so far and looking into examples and info shared, I'm thinking it's primarily a judgement call by the grader based on their personal knowledge/belief of the books value, and perhaps (sometimes?) then verified with GPA values. My book in question has dropped in value somewhat recently, but still well under the graded GPA values that some have slid by under modern. In April and May (2-3 months ago) a few 9.8s of Kanan #6 sold for $800 - $850. Now it's about $600 - $650.

I was told during my first call to CGC asking about it that a supervisor or head grader (I don't remember her exact words) must approve any tier bumps, so it's supposedly not solely up to the grader... but I think the grader must bring it up to their superior to approve. 

When books valued at $1-2k+ are slipping by, it's certainly not unilaterally enforced. Either that, or there are maybe 1-2 graders (of the approx. 15-20 on staff) who look for this being abused. The policy may even be marginally honor system based, as long as the book is not pre-1975 and your submission isn't loaded with keys.  OR a crackdown is coming.

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jsilverjanet

jsilverjanet

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On 7/24/2021 at 9:56 AM, eddly said:

Totally understand that, just seems weird to target Kanan #1.

agreed. the last book that i can recall that i sent where the price disparity was so great was a walking dead 1 that came back 9.6 this was during the WD craze and it was a $1000 book at the time.

 

 

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lou_fine

lou_fine

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On 7/20/2021 at 8:07 AM, Rhymenoceros said:

How are we supposed to determine what the value even is when the people grading the books don't make this clear? 

This is EXACTLY why this entire submission process that CGC has in place doesn't make any sense at all.  :screwy:

Now, if I understand this correctly, the tier that we submit the books under is based upon the value of the book.  Of course, as we all know, the value of any book is based upon both the grade of the book and whether it is Universal or restored.  But isn't this the exact reason why we are sending the books into CGC in the first place in terms of getting them graded and also for the restoration check.  :ohnoez:

So, is CGC saying that we are supposed to be able to know in advance if the book is going to be a CGC 9.8 graded copy or whether it's going to be a CGC 9.6 graded copy or dare we say even lower.  Then, on top of that, we are also supposed to know in advance if the book has been restored or not in order to come up with an estimated value to place it in the correct tier for pricing.  Especially when there's a big huge difference in the valuation of a book if it's a CGC 9.8 graded copy as opposed to a CGC 9.4 copy, and the same for a restored book versus an unrestored copy of the same book. :facepalm:  

Oh heck, if CGC wants the submittor to grade and conduct a restoration check on the book prior to submitting it, shouldn't they be paying us for the preliminary advanced work that we are doing for them.  :devil:

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