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Crossover Grading Failure and Difficulties -- Updated
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Started by labratnotincluded,

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labratnotincluded

labratnotincluded

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UPDATE:  After receiving the issue back from CGC, I examined it and it did indeed have non-color-breaking, slight bends in a few spots along the spine that should be able to get corrected via a proper press.  I don't recall actually seeing these on the original slab when I first received it via Ebay, but it's possible and since I didn't do my own high res scan at the time because I was excited to send it off for crossover, I can only say that it's unfortunate but I do agree with the 9.6.

 

Hopefully this will serve as a cautionary tale to anyone considering crossover grading on high dollar comics.  I recently acquired a CBCS graded 9.8 X-Men 120 off of ebay for $3400.  I submitted it Express and awaited results.  The issue looked as nice as all the other 9.8s I've seen that have been graded by CGC.  

So after waiting the express timeline, it still had no status change.  I called and was informed you needed to write "EX" on the box to get it opened earlier.  There was absolutely nothing on the website or in any of  the documentation at that time to indicate that.  I even walked through a brand new submission online, reading every last detail as I went while I was on the phone with the representative.  Still nothing at all.  I even emailed them the screenshots.  I searched all over and could find nothing at all indicating that.  The representative could not find anything either.  They transferred me through to their manager's email and I left a detailed request to have that corrected..  I was further told that it was impossible for them to look for the shipment due to the 'thousands' of daily submissions.

Almost 3 months later, the issue has finally been crossover graded.  IT IS A CGC 9.6.   NO GRADER NOTES.  I called and asked what happened and if a pressing would help.  NO GRADER NOTES, NO INDICATION.    

I knew it was a risk, but based on other comments on these boards, the odds were overwhelmingly indicative that crossover grades usually get same when going from CBCS to CGC.    This is now a $2400 loss for me based on current resale value compared to the potential $3000 to $6000 gain in value that a same grade of 9.8 would have netted.  

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Edited by labratnotincluded
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theCapraAegagrus

theCapraAegagrus

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On 7/27/2021 at 12:03 PM, labratnotincluded said:

Hopefully this will serve as a cautionary tale to anyone considering crossover grading on high dollar comics.  I recently acquired a CBCS graded 9.8 X-Men 120 off of ebay for $3400.  I submitted it Express and awaited results.  The issue looked as nice as all the other 9.8s I've seen that have been graded by CGC.  

So after waiting the express timeline, it still had no status change.  I called and was informed you needed to write "EX" on the box to get it opened earlier.  There was absolutely nothing on the website or in any of  the documentation at that time to indicate that.  I even walked through a brand new submission online, reading every last detail as I went while I was on the phone with the representative.  Still nothing at all.  I even emailed them the screenshots.  I searched all over and could find nothing at all indicating that.  The representative could not find anything either.  They transferred me through to their manager's email and I left a detailed request to have that corrected..  I was further told that it was impossible for them to look for the shipment due to the 'thousands' of daily submissions.

Almost 3 months later, the issue has finally been crossover graded.  IT IS A CGC 9.6.   NO GRADER NOTES.  I called and asked what happened and if a pressing would help.  NO GRADER NOTES, NO INDICATION.    

I knew it was a risk, but based on other comments on these boards, the odds were overwhelmingly indicative that crossover grades usually get same when going from CBCS to CGC.    This is now a $2400 loss for me based on current resale value compared to the potential $3000 to $6000 gain in value that a same grade of 9.8 would have netted. 

Where was that? Based on the results that I have seen, you have a 1/3 chance to go up, down, or stay the same. In the case of 9.8s, it's about 50/50 that it'll stay the same or go down.

I have never seen a 9.6 with grader notes, so that should come as no surprise. (shrug)

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labratnotincluded

labratnotincluded

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On 7/27/2021 at 11:09 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Where was that? Based on the results that I have seen, you have a 1/3 chance to go up, down, or stay the same. In the case of 9.8s, it's about 50/50 that it'll stay the same or go down.

I have never seen a 9.6 with grader notes, so that should come as no surprise. (shrug)

Where were you before I took this risk?  Anyways, this is just a cautionary tale.  As I said, I knew it was a risk.   I won't fall for that again.  Not worth the risk for anything high dollar is the point of the story. :D

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theCapraAegagrus

theCapraAegagrus

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On 7/27/2021 at 12:32 PM, labratnotincluded said:

Where were you before I took this risk?  Anyways, this is just a cautionary tale.  As I said, I knew it was a risk.   I won't fall for that again.  Not worth the risk for anything high dollar is the point of the story. :D

The difference between a 9.8 and a 9.6 is visually negligible. I wouldn't have even considered crossing that book over. I would have sold it and bought a CGC 9.8 if owning that was my endgame.

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thehumantorch

thehumantorch

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On 7/27/2021 at 10:03 AM, labratnotincluded said:

the odds were overwhelmingly indicative that crossover grades usually get same when going from CBCS to CGC

I'm not sure why you believe this as we've seen many threads about crossovers and the grades aren't consistent.  Grades aren't even overwhelmingly consistent when you crack and resubmit CGC to CGC.  I'd never crack a CGC 9.8 and resubmit to CGC as there's too much risk of a lower grade and that goes double for a 9.8 CBCS to CGC.

I'm sorry this happened to you as it's a huge change in value.

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zzutak

zzutak

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On 7/27/2021 at 9:03 AM, labratnotincluded said:

Hopefully this will serve as a cautionary tale to anyone considering crossover grading on high dollar comics.

Respectfully, this should not.  You're making a huge mistake by thinking that CGC will always award the exact same grade to a specific specimen in a specific state.  We all would like to believe that condition grading is an exact science, and that each and every CGC grader will see exactly the same defects and apply CGC's grading standards in exactly the same way.  Unfortunately, CGC's operation will not lead to a 100% reproducible result.  I've seen literally dozens of examples of books fail a 9.8 NM/MT prescreen on an initial submission and then pass that same prescreen on a follow-up resubmission (with no intervening clean/press).

And none of what I just wrote is meant as a slam on CGC.  If you really believe your book warrants a 9.8, just resubmit it.

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labratnotincluded

labratnotincluded

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On 7/27/2021 at 11:44 AM, Mylark said:

Then you didn't talk to JenniferF who runs the Ask CGC thread. She's been telling people this for many months. Now if you're talking 6 months+ ago for the link I provided then that's possible,   I can't remember that far back.

So, the main documentation on the website did not have the EX info anywhere back in the beginning of May of this year when I submitted.  The turnaround times page and the actual submission information had absolutely nothing.  I searched high and low after the rep on the phone said that it needed to be written on the box.  I spent the time on the phone with them and we both walked through the submission from scratch and neither of us could find anything.

I had not considered the fact that I should have researched the forums for information regarding Express submissions that I didn't know had specific requirements not outlined at the time in the areas I mentioned :D  

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theCapraAegagrus

theCapraAegagrus

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On 7/27/2021 at 12:50 PM, labratnotincluded said:

So, the main documentation on the website did not have the EX info anywhere back in the beginning of May of this year when I submitted...

This cannot be true. The information provided by Stu, above, was certainly added in April when CGC changed their prices and discounts. It was definitely there in May.

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labratnotincluded

labratnotincluded

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On 7/27/2021 at 11:48 AM, thehumantorch said:

 

I'm not sure why you believe this as we've seen many threads about crossovers and the grades aren't consistent.  Grades aren't even overwhelmingly consistent when you crack and resubmit CGC to CGC.  I'd never crack a CGC 9.8 and resubmit to CGC as there's too much risk of a lower grade and that goes double for a 9.8 CBCS to CGC.

I'm sorry this happened to you as it's a huge change in value.

I think the ongoing theme here is I don't read the forums enough.  I usually glance at stuff every once in a while and my recollection was what I mentioned.  I don't spend hours reading through forums and responding much except to look through for sale stuff or post "want to buy" ads.  I think I've participated in the scanner thread from when I wanted a scanner and maybe posted about some underground comics too. 

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labratnotincluded

labratnotincluded

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On 7/27/2021 at 11:54 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

This cannot be true. The information provided by Stu, above, was certainly added in April when CGC changed their prices and discounts. It was definitely there in May.

"These are not the droids you are looking for... let them pass.... you don't need to see our papers"

 

 

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labratnotincluded

labratnotincluded

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On 7/27/2021 at 11:49 AM, zzutak said:

Respectfully, this should not.  You're making a huge mistake by thinking that CGC will always award the exact same grade to a specific specimen in a specific state.  We all would like to believe that condition grading is an exact science, and that each and every CGC grader will see exactly the same defects and apply CGC's grading standards in exactly the same way.  Unfortunately, CGC's operation will not lead to a 100% reproducible result.  I've seen literally dozens of examples of books fail a 9.8 NM/MT prescreen on an initial submission and then pass that same prescreen on a follow-up resubmission (with no intervening clean/press).

And none of what I just wrote is meant as a slam on CGC.  If you really believe your book warrants a 9.8, just resubmit it.

Agree, I've seen the same.  This was my first and last time doing crossover.  

 

You guys... it is a cautionary tale. I am stating that I attempted the crossover grading service with a high dollar comic.  I stated the grade was lower than what I would have expected.  I provided the reasoning, namely that there was a huge difference in the value (huge loss instead of huge gain).  Yes, I knew the risk.  

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Asmodean

Asmodean

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Press and resubmit, can't loose much more by trying again.

Unfortunately the human element of grading is unpredictable and like it's been said before the difference between a 9.6 - 9.8 almost negligible but it is there... but it's also subjective, one grader might see a tiny tick in the same place another doesn't, who is correct and who isn't? Might as well ask if when they last had a fresh cup of coffee.

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