Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION - A Must Watch! 18 18

[COI]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:05 PM, Park said:

I think’s it is counterproductive to continually remove posts that aren’t wildly offensive.

Someone is dropping dong bombs? Sure, blast away.

Someone is just bickering back and forth? Leave it there so others can see the continual pattern.

Hell, we are in a thread discussing manipulation and who knew what and when and this guy hid that and so on yet we remove posts that establish a pattern of people behaving in a certain way? While unnecessary and usually annoying and not helping to move the discussion along, if this is a “community” why not just let it sit and speak for itself?

And yes, I realize it might create more work for mods but damn, if we are a bunch of adults, why not just let it stand and dole out the warnings and points, if necessary?

Leave the “evidence” behind and do your thing?

@skypinkblu

The funny thing is, on my side of things, I was purposely going out of my way to point something out WITHOUT making it personal. 

I also don't understand this obsession with keeping every post on topic. That's not how casual conversations work, and casual conversations are the entire point of having message boards. Newsflash, you can gloss over/skip posts you don't care about, you can ignore people you don't like, etc, but it's impossible to control the flow of a group of people talking, and it's a little gross to actually WANT to control it to such a degree.

Not to mention the feedback loops that come with socializing with other people. You're supposed to take cues from the people around you to understand how you're coming across to and affecting others, and then, if you're even remotely socialized, calibrate your behavior accordingly. As you just said Shawn, when posts are deleted, you're interfering with that feedback loop, meaning that the people involved don't have to actually confront their own errors and how the content or the style of their posts are coming off to everyone else. The irony being that the mods are making more work for themselves by not letting people have to deal with the social consequences of their behavior, and so the patterns repeat over and over.

I mean, not my forum, not my rules, got it, but anyone who has been here for a decade or more likely sees how things have changed based on the way this place is moderated. 

I was poking Kav about recommending some literature on logical reasoning; hey MODS, can I recommend some social psychology? 

[Park]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:22 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

I have to assume that is in invitation.

PM incoming!!!

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:25 PM, COI said:

I was poking Kav about recommending some literature on logical reasoning; hey MODS, can I recommend some social psychology? 

There are already threads for these.. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:25 PM, COI said:

The funny thing is, on my side of things, I was purposely going out of my way to point something out WITHOUT making it personal. 

I also don't understand this obsession with keeping every post on topic. That's not how casual conversations work, and casual conversations are the entire point of having message boards. Newsflash, you can gloss over/skip posts you don't care about, you can ignore people you don't like, etc, but it's impossible to control the flow of a group of people talking, and it's a little gross to actually WANT to control it to such a degree.

Not to mention the feedback loops that come with socializing with other people. You're supposed to take cues from the people around you to understand how you're coming across to and affecting others, and then, if you're even remotely socialized, calibrate your behavior accordingly. As you just said Shawn, when posts are deleted, you're interfering with that feedback loop, meaning that the people involved don't have to actually confront their own errors and how the content or the style of their posts are coming off to everyone else. The irony being that the mods are making more work for themselves by not letting people have to deal with the social consequences of their behavior, and so the patterns repeat over and over.

I mean, not my forum, not my rules, got it, but anyone who has been here for a decade or more likely sees how things have changed based on the way this place is moderated. 

 

That's what she said. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:30 PM, Park said:

I have to assume that is in invitation.

PM incoming!!!

[Park]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:25 PM, COI said:

The funny thing is, on my side of things, I was purposely going out of my way to point something out WITHOUT making it personal. 

I also don't understand this obsession with keeping every post on topic. That's not how casual conversations work, and casual conversations are the entire point of having message boards. Newsflash, you can gloss over/skip posts you don't care about, you can ignore people you don't like, etc, but it's impossible to control the flow of a group of people talking, and it's a little gross to actually WANT to control it to such a degree.

Not to mention the feedback loops that come with socializing with other people. You're supposed to take cues from the people around you to understand how you're coming across to and affecting others, and then, if you're even remotely socialized, calibrate your behavior accordingly. As you just said Shawn, when posts are deleted, you're interfering with that feedback loop, meaning that the people involved don't have to actually confront their own errors and how the content or the style of their posts are coming off to everyone else. The irony being that the mods are making more work for themselves by not letting people have to deal with the social consequences of their behavior, and so the patterns repeat over and over.

I mean, not my forum, not my rules, got it, but anyone who has been here for a decade or more likely sees how things have changed based on the way this place is moderated. 

I was poking Kav about recommending some literature on logical reasoning; hey MODS, can I recommend some social psychology? 

Of course, there are different levels of derailing.

This is just byproduct of the actual conversation at hand.

Carpetbombing a discussion with memes and gifs while something is still being actively discussed? Yeah, tool.

One or two for levity shouldn’t be an issue.

Discussions that do go off on a tangent like what you were doing shouldn’t be instantly blasted regardless of how many posters hit the button for moderation. 

But as you say, if part of the intention of moderation, which I believe is true, is to foster a community then let that type of thing stand even to just flat out arguing. You can’t develop any type of relationship between anyone if all you see is positivity and kittens.

[kav]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:25 PM, COI said:

The funny thing is, on my side of things, I was purposely going out of my way to point something out WITHOUT making it personal. 

I also don't understand this obsession with keeping every post on topic. That's not how casual conversations work, and casual conversations are the entire point of having message boards. Newsflash, you can gloss over/skip posts you don't care about, you can ignore people you don't like, etc, but it's impossible to control the flow of a group of people talking, and it's a little gross to actually WANT to control it to such a degree.

Not to mention the feedback loops that come with socializing with other people. You're supposed to take cues from the people around you to understand how you're coming across to and affecting others, and then, if you're even remotely socialized, calibrate your behavior accordingly. As you just said Shawn, when posts are deleted, you're interfering with that feedback loop, meaning that the people involved don't have to actually confront their own errors and how the content or the style of their posts are coming off to everyone else. The irony being that the mods are making more work for themselves by not letting people have to deal with the social consequences of their behavior, and so the patterns repeat over and over.

I mean, not my forum, not my rules, got it, but anyone who has been here for a decade or more likely sees how things have changed based on the way this place is moderated. 

I was poking Kav about recommending some literature on logical reasoning; hey MODS, can I recommend some social psychology? 

[comicwiz]

On 8/29/2021 at 5:46 PM, Bronty said:

The ultimate example of this is sports cards.    There are cards where the ink is barely dry selling fir seven figures.

One of the interesting things about the way PSA presents information right off it's website is that it consolidates it, rather than the fragmented manner it's handled in hobbies like comics. For instance, CGC provides a s/n lookup, and census/population data, but if you're interested in values, you have to use GPA. PSA centralizing the data presents an opportunity to peel back the layers and understand how certain cards go through these price resets. I was particularly interested in some OPC cards and watched this seeming upward trajectory for several years on a handful of cards, then looked at the "auctions prices realized" section and noticed two, at most three sellers, that have been actively involved in moving the market on them. And then, I'd spread it out to all the big money cards, and they were always there as well. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out something's off when there's a wide disparity between someone on eBay getting the "average" price, and one of the bigger dealers not only consistently getting top price, but moving the needle (i.e. setting new records) in a very short period of time.

Then eBay sends out it's notice on PWCC shilling their auctions.

Of course PWCC denies it, no chance they'll ever come clean like Burkey did. It seems that's really the only way people will believe anything is offside about the market movers, to come clean about what they're doing.

[MetalPSI]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:14 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

They just scrubbed some of garbage back and forth not related to the topic . 

If they have to keep doing it, they will either poof or permanently lock the thread. 

They will also start assigning points. 

They have already given a warning in the thread about this after the last temporary lock/clean. 

Which they didn't have to do

[MetalPSI]

On 8/29/2021 at 5:05 PM, Park said:

I think’s it is counterproductive to continually remove posts that aren’t wildly offensive.

Someone is dropping dong bombs? Sure, blast away.

Someone is just bickering back and forth? Leave it there so others can see the continual pattern.

Hell, we are in a thread discussing manipulation and who knew what and when and this guy hid that and so on yet we remove posts that establish a pattern of people behaving in a certain way? While unnecessary and usually annoying and not helping to move the discussion along, if this is a “community” why not just let it sit and speak for itself?

And yes, I realize it might create more work for mods but damn, if we are a bunch of adults, why not just let it stand and dole out the warnings and points, if necessary?

Leave the “evidence” behind and do your thing?

@skypinkblu

Been saying this into the void since pretty much my first point. 

They don't want adults, children are easier to deal with, and do what I say

[Park]

On 8/29/2021 at 5:16 PM, Dr. Dank said:

Been saying this into the void since pretty much my first point. 

 

Does the void respond much?

The reality is that the admins on this board (not the mods we know or the hosts) are gonna go with the easiest option that covers the majority of issues here.

That’s fine but the point I think you and I agree on is that in doing so, you have lost the community aspect of these boards. The closeness and camaraderie that existed early on that developed real life relationships. 

Of course, people just called it cliques and complained about that too so there isn’t a perfect solution.

I’ll get off my soapbox and go crawl back under my rock.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:41 AM, jimjum12 said:

I've read every one of your posts and respect your commitment to fairness ... but the info I've seen ? I think those principals in that grading company were all very much dealers and collectors before they took the next step. If anything, they may have overstepped "the line" a little in their zeal for market promotion.

I can appreciate your willingness to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. It's kind and generous and reflects your desire to see the best in people.

In this case, it appears their zeal for market promotion led them to lean into the half-truths that they were peddling, and keep peddling them, and this is where it becomes market manipulation. Because the announcements that mentioned Thrower as a co-founder of WATA also mention Lecce, but only as a renowned collector. Not a lie, but clearly not the truth and to mention both men in official announcements and only mention one as a founder, isn't an accident. They knew that to present the news of this record sale as being a sale to someone who owns part of the company that graded the game they're promoting, that would look...bad. So they left out--as Paul Harvey would say--the rest of the story.

Edited August 30, 2021 by MatterEaterLad

[WolverineX]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:54 PM, Park said:

Yeah your statement is absurd.

You are using a medium that allows you to not only have a back and forth discussion but explain what your reasoning or thinking is and maybe why you think that way.

There is every opportunity to expand and make sure you are understood as it is incredibly easy to be misunderstood with writing.

Maybe we agree more than you think. Maybe we disagree on certain points but come to an understanding on others. Maybe we learn something new.

But making a statement like you made is the equivalent of “x is good/bad and if you think otherwise you are dumb”.

I wish it was that easy but it isn’t. If you aren’t willing to have a discussion I guess that’s an option as well.

It's obvious to most people on the boards that there has been manipulation and it's not out of the question that people who have a vested interest to continue the farce  would attack the video.  

I was making a sarcastic statement on the situation.  

You coming in and calling it absurd  even though you agree that there is likely manipulation and expecting a huge discourse is  just as absurd given that we are on page 33...

 

Have you not read the first 10 pages of the thread? You are not going to reinvent the wheel.  

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:32 AM, Bronty said:

A misrepresentation is essentially something that is not true, correct? 

No. Misrepresentations in marketing tend to come in the form of half-truths, not lies. 

The FTC doesn't investigate subjective truths, like "WATA is the best grading company in the world!" That's subjective puffery.

The FTC does investigate objective marketing claims, like "A WATA graded game just set an all-time sales record!" That's objective, but is it the whole truth? Part of it's true. When they bought your game it was an all-time sales record. But the part the FTC will inevitably investigate is why that claim is based on the sale of a game to a WATA founder, and why was that hidden in their promotions? Why are the founders of a grading company promoting this sale as if it happened naturally in the marketplace? And did that misrepresentation affect other people and businesses. 

In the end, if their misrepresentation causes people to lose money, or buy games that have precipitous drops in value, they may have a problem. But hey, if everyone made money and no one is complaining, there's no harm, so the FTC gives them a pass.

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by MatterEaterLad

[comicwiz]

Looks like my reflections on PSA, Collectors Universe and Goldin Auctions in this thread are starting to interweave with this scandal

A Major Scandal at the Heart of a New "Alternative Asset Class" Market Is Clearly About Something Other Than Vintage Video Games

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/breaking-news-a-major-scandal-at

Edited August 30, 2021 by comicwiz

[kav]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:18 PM, comicwiz said:

Looks like my reflections on PSA, Collectors Universe and Goldin Auctions in this thread are starting to interweave with this scandal:

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/breaking-news-a-major-scandal-at

@Buzzetta

[Park]

On 8/29/2021 at 6:10 PM, Wolverinex said:

It's obvious to most people on the boards that there has been manipulation and it's not out of the question that people who have a vested interest to continue the farce  would attack the video.  

I was making a sarcastic statement on the situation.  

You coming in and calling it absurd  even though you agree that there is likely manipulation and expecting a huge discourse is  just as absurd given that we are on page 33...

 

Have you not read the first 10 pages of the thread? You are not going to reinvent the wheel.  

Was there a poll of most people on the board? How exactly do you know what most people think?

You don’t have any idea what most people think. Neither does anyone else.

There are 33 pages of about ten people having an ongoing discussion. I have a general idea of what they think but those people are willing to have a discussion. The assumption that only people with a vested interest would attack the video is, again, absurd. I have zero interest in collecting sealed video games. Absolutely none and I have been continually playing video games since the days of Atari. I have a huge problem with the leaps of logic in the video. As many people, including myself, have said, there are some valid points in that video but that doesn’t excuse the other leaps he makes. Several others in here have no interest as well.

You made a blanket statement that if you don’t think there is manipulation, you are part of the problem. 

Again, there is an ongoing discussion that you can join or not. And it might take more than 33 pages for people to share their views or come to the discussion later or share new/different information.

My assumption is that you have already made up your mind that everyone mentioned in the video and/or associated in any way with WATA is corrupt and it’s all a sham.

That’s the assumption I made based on what statements you have made including the one we are discussing. Is that completely unfair or incorrect or narrow minded? Or is there more to unpack there and discuss?

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Park

[comicwiz]

On 8/29/2021 at 9:23 PM, kav said:

@Buzzetta

Nothing says we are going to pul the rug out from under all these suckers quite like having ties to the RDIF and Headstone

Edited August 30, 2021 by comicwiz

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 8/29/2021 at 9:18 PM, comicwiz said:

Looks like my reflections on PSA, Collectors Universe and Goldin Auctions in this thread are starting to interweave with this scandal

A Major Scandal at the Heart of a New "Alternative Asset Class" Market Is Clearly About Something Other Than Vintage Video Games

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/breaking-news-a-major-scandal-at

In the same report, Rovell notes that The Blackstone Group, which suddenly withdrew over $500 million in assets from WATA co-owner Steven A. Cohen’s hedge fund in 2013, had just purchased (also in July 2021) CGC—which quickly announced that it would imminently be building a new video game grading division intended to compete with WATA.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:59 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

In the same report, Rovell notes that The Blackstone Group, which suddenly withdrew over $500 million in assets from WATA co-owner Steven A. Cohen’s hedge fund in 2013, had just purchased (also in July 2021) CGC—which quickly announced that it would imminently be building a new video game grading division intended to compete with WATA.

I miss the days when I was a kid and would take my allowance to Edna's Bookstore next to the Greyhound station and ask to see the "box of funny books" she kept behind the counter. It was all Silver Age goodness. I remember buying DD 7 and X-Men 6, and going around the corner and sitting in a donut shop reading these amazing old comics.

Now I have to worry about hedge fund managers pumping up collectibles markets so they can take advantage of tax loopholes. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by MatterEaterLad