Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION - A Must Watch! 18 18

[kav]

On 8/29/2021 at 10:17 PM, Bronty said:

The competing offer was a long established collector and someone who I suspect was more philosophically motivated to suppress than raise prices.  

thx

[COI]

A genuine question here, and please just take the question at face value: who is the victim of this "alternative asset class" creation if, going by the video and the substack, this is a group of wealthy guys getting richer off of another group of wealthy guys who no one has heard from and who, it is somehow assumed, are being bamboozled, despite the fact that this information was already out there for the gathering? Either there is a group - let's call the the "underbidders" - who are being "manipulated" into bidding high prices for expensive games, or this is all a smokescreen, the sales are fake, in which case....no one is being taken, financially, by this slabbed theater. 

Why is this question important? Because I can point to clear incentives to act unethically on the content creation side of "gaming journalism" who think the ends justify the means, and going after this "alternate asset class" creation is akin to exposing the real estate bubble pre-2008, where the victims were clear. 

So for those of you who find the video compelling, where are the bodies?

 

[Beige]

As a complete outsider - I don't know anyone involved, and I have no interest in the Video game market, and even less knowledge.

 

I would say that qualifies me as an  'independent outsider' , oui?

 

So as an independent outsider, my concern is that  clearly some of the MSM who were involved in the original promotion of this company and game, and who took all the info at face value, are now going to be revisiting this sale, and the players involved.

MSM, for all it's many, many faults, don't like to be made fools of, and certainly not be innocently complicit in promoting something that more and more outlets are leaning towards the 'does not pass the smell test' camp.

 

I worry that Heritage will be compromised beyond repair IF similar shenanigans are exposed as brutally (as this one APPEARS to be) in Comic and Comic OA record sales.

 

The MSM are seemingly being drawn towards this story, as sharks are to chum in the sea. I hope for the best, but fear...you know the rest.

 

I hope the records sales can be shown to be genuine, and that Comics, on the whole, actually are gaining as Heritage's sales would suggest - not a 'quasi-ponzi' scheme where the circle of selling between the same involved parties can be proven.

 

If corruption can be shown in a significant number of sales, then there could be a major market correction before stability prevails, and a lot of people could be burned, especially the new or uninformed.

I welcome a 'correction' but not at the expense of new comic collectors / first time buyers.

And yes they DO exist 

 

Looking at the "Promise" collection, I admit to being more than a little concerned. With the increasingly incestuous relationship between Heritage, Rally Rd, CGC, Pawn Stars and gaming companies et al being revealed like the skins of an onion, it's hard to see how the mind-bogglingly absurd over-grading on some of the books would be overlooked by people investigating this alleged scam. 

 

Maybe Halperin will have to fall on his sword to calm the gathering MSM who are sharpening pitchforks as we speak. This cannot, and seemingly will not be swept under the carpet.

 

 

FWIW - I have used Heritage once, and the transactions were conducted professionally and in a timely fashion. I have no complaints personally.

 

 

NOTE: No allegations are being made by me towards any board members or outside persons - I don't know any of them, or have any additional info regarding the protagonists so to do so would be wrong. The conviction of Jim Halperin however is of public record, and very hard to overlook

 

[COI]

On 8/29/2021 at 9:18 PM, comicwiz said:

Looks like my reflections on PSA, Collectors Universe and Goldin Auctions in this thread are starting to interweave with this scandal

A Major Scandal at the Heart of a New "Alternative Asset Class" Market Is Clearly About Something Other Than Vintage Video Games

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/breaking-news-a-major-scandal-at

The 2008 housing bubble created what is now known as the Great Recession. U.S. media missed the big story then, and government did almost nothing to protect Americans thereafter. Now a new bubble is being created, and again legacy media and the federal government are absent. Here’s hoping that Americans come to appreciate the critical role of independent journalism in protecting America before this new cadre of rapacious mavens again leads America into financial ruin. With both a global pandemic and a domestic insurgency ongoing, America can ill afford to let this new, inorganic collectible market spiral further out of control. It’s already hit a level of volatility—and is defined by a level of misconduct— that marks it as a potentially serious threat to many, many Americans going forward.

While of course video games are not homes, when a nation is in the midst of three things simultaneously—a public health crisis; a political crisis; and an economic crisis—the likelihood that many people move into new asset-class markets and submarkets to take risky bets on their own financial futures increases, as older models of wealth development suddenly seem particularly fraught. Media plays a significant role in this; if, as is happening now, a network like CNN is recklessly publishing articles with headlines like “Why Your Old Video Games May Be Worth Millions”, it entices many regular folks into a market they don’t understand but that seems fabulously lucrative—when in fact it might be largely artificial.

Because video gaming is now “the largest and most expansive industry in the world of entertainment”, it has the capacity to attract a volume of investors and hobbyists that is larger than any other entertainment sub-sector. But it was only recently that a large, seemingly welcoming front door was put right at the front of that sub-sector: collecting graded video games as a long-term investment.
 

This part made my eyes roll back so far, they did a full 360 and I got a quick visual tour of the back of my skull. It was dark and kind of empty.

The article establishes a bunch of connections between people supposedly rigging the high end of an ultra niche game that 7 people are playing on the basis that "America can ill afford to let this new, inorganic collectible market spiral further out of control."

Holy moly!!!! THIS is not the America I know!

[kav]

On 8/29/2021 at 10:41 PM, COI said:

The 2008 housing bubble created what is now known as the Great Recession. U.S. media missed the big story then, and government did almost nothing to protect Americans thereafter. Now a new bubble is being created, and again legacy media and the federal government are absent. Here’s hoping that Americans come to appreciate the critical role of independent journalism in protecting America before this new cadre of rapacious mavens again leads America into financial ruin. With both a global pandemic and a domestic insurgency ongoing, America can ill afford to let this new, inorganic collectible market spiral further out of control. It’s already hit a level of volatility—and is defined by a level of misconduct— that marks it as a potentially serious threat to many, many Americans going forward.

While of course video games are not homes, when a nation is in the midst of three things simultaneously—a public health crisis; a political crisis; and an economic crisis—the likelihood that many people move into new asset-class markets and submarkets to take risky bets on their own financial futures increases, as older models of wealth development suddenly seem particularly fraught. Media plays a significant role in this; if, as is happening now, a network like CNN is recklessly publishing articles with headlines like “Why Your Old Video Games May Be Worth Millions”, it entices many regular folks into a market they don’t understand but that seems fabulously lucrative—when in fact it might be largely artificial.

Because video gaming is now “the largest and most expansive industry in the world of entertainment”, it has the capacity to attract a volume of investors and hobbyists that is larger than any other entertainment sub-sector. But it was only recently that a large, seemingly welcoming front door was put right at the front of that sub-sector: collecting graded video games as a long-term investment.
 

This part made my eyes roll back so far, they did a full 360 and I got a quick visual tour of the back of my skull. It was dark and kind of empty.

The article establishes a bunch of connections between people supposedly rigging the high end of an ultra niche game that 7 people are playing on the basis that "America can ill afford to let this new, inorganic collectible market spiral further out of control."

Holy moly!!!! THIS is not the America I know!

Wow they really went over the top with that one!!!  I guess I'm supposed to be scared?  Not sure.

[COI]

"Here’s hoping that Americans come to appreciate the critical role of independent journalism in protecting America before this new cadre of rapacious mavens again leads America into financial ruin."

[Park]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:18 PM, Iconic1s said:

I watched the entire video and have read the forwarded articles as well. Only jumped in here earlier to make a joke. 

I may be part of a silent majority that is just reading along in fascination.  I hate to say something like ‘where there’s smoke…’ because that is not always the case, however there is ALOT of smoke. I’m not even making ‘leaps of logic’ to say this. There are just too many coincidences for there not to be some fire.  Not to mention you have someone involved that has a track record of being a crook and manipulating other similar markets.

I too could care less about sealed video games.  I just hope that the appropriate authorities get involved and REALLY get to the bottom of this mess.

IF, big IF this is true then anyone that collects these items that have very little ‘intrinsic’ value yet end up seeming to have incredible ‘extrinsic’ value should be angry.  I like comics but also realize I am a small fish… I came to the realization early that there are some books I will just never be able to afford. This sort of manipulation may be why regular collectors, that just love their hobby, are priced out of many items.

My mind is made up, these guys are dishonest and just got busted ruining the graded video game hobby. The only question for me is will they get away with it?  Will their expensive lawyers and PR firms whitewash this? I personally hope they all get busted and that it sends a message to other similarly minded people to leave these hobbies be.

Lastly, I hope to God that the next thing Blackstone does isn’t link CGC up with an auction house. I already see what I think are inflated grades on their in-house signings, and I think the Promise Collection has already been talked to death.  If there is some preferred auction house then I think we can kiss grading integrity goodbye.

Eleven…

I don’t disagree on the smoke and fire thing. There are valid questions and Halperin being involved gives me pause.

The leap of logic is that the whole thing was rigged from the word go with everyone involved implicit in the rigging. That is an incredibly important distinction. That is the problem that I see in the videos and the articles. 

If we get to the point that there is a real fire, then yeah let’s hope there is something that can be done to those who are responsible and not just anyone involved or anyone who didn’t immediately grab the torches. The videos and articles I have read have not established anything near that. That has been my issue. I hesitate to go all in on that yet.

I also have an issue with the idea that people paying a lot of money aren’t collectors. Just because I have more money than Bob and I can afford a “better” copy of “Dong Bomber #46” doesn’t mean I am not a real collector just like you paying more money for even better copy makes you less of a collector than Bob or myself.

The reality is there is too much money for hucksters to leave any of these hobbies alone. It’s also a reality that there have been hucksters involved in the hobby when a comic book was first sold for more than the price on the cover. It is also mind numbing that I have to even state this next part but I think we are this point with some in the audience but in no way does what I just wrote in the preceding two sentences mean that I think it is ok for hucksters to do huckster type stuff. It just is a part of these hobbies that sucks and drives people away.

[Park]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:11 PM, Dr. Dank said:

I'm just sad because it's not happening just here. Everywhere online where free flow discussions were once the norm, silence by banishment is creeping ever steadily in.

It's somewhat alarming to be honest 

Sure. There is a happy medium to be had but it feels like everyone is more concerned with being right or cool buzzwords or us vs them than an actual compromise that allows actual free flow discussions.

And then there is the definition of a free flow discussion…

And the definition of compromise…

And so on and so on until we just disable the comment section for the entire internet.

Which might not be a horrible idea.

[HotKey]

On 8/30/2021 at 1:20 AM, COI said:

A genuine question here, and please just take the question at face value: who is the victim of this "alternative asset class" creation if, going by the video and the substack, this is a group of wealthy guys getting richer off of another group of wealthy guys who no one has heard from and who, it is somehow assumed, are being bamboozled, despite the fact that this information was already out there for the gathering?

This is a great question. The victim here, if there was premeditated collusion towards market manipulation (yeah a big if), is the average citizen who was never part of the collectible video game market before, saw one or more of the articles on the explosion of value, and decided to buy into it for a few thousand dollars worth because, hey, it's on CNN/Fox/etc so they must have researched it.

Without the (assumed) manipulation and broadcast of that propaganda, they would have never considered investing in that market. 

The only question that would remain in that scenario is how much responsibility do they bear for just investing from a news article and not doing full due diligence? 100%? And if it's not 100%, then you are into an area with potential legal and/or civil consequences for the parties involved. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/30/2021 at 1:13 AM, Park said:

I have more money than Bob and I can afford a “better” copy of “Dong Bomber #46” doesn’t mean I am not a real collector just like you paying more money for even better copy makes you less of a collector than Bob or myself.

I do not know about "Dong Bomber #46" or much about Bob, but evidently Bob Dong makes a Bomber Jacket that sells for decent amount.  21 already sold. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/30/2021 at 1:53 AM, kav said:

Spend 2K on a diamond ring, the only place that will buy it is a pawn shop, for 50 bucks.  

Hey I just bought this diamond ring from you,  how much is it worth if I want to sell it back? 

Edited August 30, 2021 by onlyweaknesskryptonite

[COI]

On 8/30/2021 at 2:46 AM, HotKey said:

This is a great question. The victim here, if there was premeditated collusion towards market manipulation (yeah a big if), is the average citizen who was never part of the collectible video game market before, saw one or more of the articles on the explosion of value, and decided to buy into it for a few thousand dollars worth because, hey, it's on CNN/Fox/etc so they must have researched it.

Without the (assumed) manipulation and broadcast of that propaganda, they would have never considered investing in that market. 

The only question that would remain in that scenario is how much responsibility do they bear for just investing from a news article and not doing full due diligence? 100%? And if it's not 100%, then you are into an area with potential legal and/or civil consequences for the parties involved. 

Appreciate the response.

To me, the trickle-down argument is a bit of  a leap. Karl attempts to make a similar argument in the video, citing people trying to sell Mario 64 carts for massively inflated prices as a direct result of the record sale. I fail to see how this is any more manipulative than the thousands and thousands of "MOVIE SOON!" "NETFLIX SHOW"! key word tactics being employed in comics to push record-breaking prices even the most minor keys, at all price/grading levels. And as soon as one buyer hits that inflated 'buy it now', every seller who has a similar item immediately wants to hit that new threshold.

This is happening right now, and has been happening for years in comics. It's a standard practice. I don't think it's a good practice, but at the same time I'm not feeling sorry for the dude who saw some random article about the exploding prices in comics (plenty of those exist too) and decided to overpay. Similarly, no seasoned collector pities the guy who paid some GPA record high set 2 years ago for book XYZ. So why is this reporting so focused on constructing a narrative where this type of behavior at the very top end of the game...game is portrayed as some sort of ultra-corrupt anomaly, threatening to "lead America into financial ruin"? 

To be clear, this type of hucksterism isn't good and I'm not defending it, but it's also nothing new, and portraying it as some sort of fresh spawn of satan casting a never-before-seen blight on the video game hobby - and by extension the American economy!!! - is in itself a manipulation. 

And with that, I think I'm going to bow out. I've made my points and am probably repeating myself way too much. It was fun, and I appreciated the conversation.

 

[MasterChief]

Thank you, COI.

And now, a damage control word from our sponsor...

*************

Heritage Auctions Comments on State of Video-Game Marketplace
Press Release

DALLAS, Texas (Aug. 25, 2021) — Heritage Auctions has seen the recent speculation about alleged market manipulation in the collector video-game marketplace. The company and its founders want to ensure all those who love the hobby as much as we do that Heritage has always acted with the utmost integrity and has never falsely inflated the collector video-game marketplace or any other.

Heritage has worked tirelessly for more than four decades to ensure the best possible experience for our consignors and clients. Transparency and integrity are the cornerstones of our business, and since our founding in 1976, we have earned a reputation as trusted stewards of the collectibles hobby.

Our co-founder Jim Halperin, a well-known collector across several categories, was an early believer in the collectible video-game marketplace, and has been an active participant in that arena for several years. Indeed, Jim's participation — including his purchase of the first six-figure video game — was not only disclosed, but was widely publicized by Heritage Auctions.

While Heritage has a strong relationship with Wata, as well as other third-party grading companies and authenticators, Wata's grading and activities are wholly independent from Heritage or its management. Jim was indeed an early minority stakeholder in Wata, through his nonprofit foundation that provides funding for arts-, education- and health-related endeavors. "I had no idea video games would take off as fast as they did," he says of his early involvement, "but I suspected that marketplace was undervalued."

Jim divested himself of his ownership in Wata earlier this year when that company was sold. The notion that Heritage somehow colluded in order to achieve results at auction is baseless and falsely assumes that transactions are fictitious when they are in fact very much real.

Heritage prides itself on transparency, which is why we post every result from every auction and maintain that information in our permanent archive, which is accessible by anyone who is interested in that information, including Heritage's 1.5 million registered bidders worldwide. Heritage and Jim wholeheartedly agree that as the video-game marketplace continues to evolve and mature that population reports are an essential component needed to maintain its transparency.

Yes, Heritage employees do consign and bid on items for their personal collections, as disclosed in our terms and conditions. Jim is well known as one of the world's greatest collectors of EC comics, original comic-book art and Mad memorabilia. But as we always say, an item is only worth what two bidders are willing to pay for it, and Heritage strives to make the playing field level for all.

As to the question of regulatory fines, in 1989 Jim and co-founder Steve Ivy reached a settlement with the Federal Trade Commission arising from allegations related to grading and the marketing of coins by an unrelated third party. Heritage Auctions settled for $1.2 million to avoid protracted litigation and admitted no wrongdoing. As Halperin himself said in 2004 on the company's website, "I'm glad the FTC came in, cracked down on some of the practices in the industry and weeded out some of the bad apples, allowing us to alter our business model profitably, and serve a much larger and faster growing clientele." This settlement had nothing to do Heritage Auctions.

We founded Heritage Auctions 45 years ago as an auction house by collectors for collectors.

Robert Wilonsky, Communications Director

https://www.ha.com/heritage-auctions-press-releases-and-news/heritage-auctions-comments-on-state-of-video-game-marketplace.s?releaseId=4273

 

[Gaard]

On 8/30/2021 at 4:56 AM, MasterChief said:

$1.2 million to avoid protracted litigation

Does that mean they paid over a million bucks so the FTC would stop wasting their time?

[HotKey]

On 8/30/2021 at 4:56 AM, MasterChief said:

Heritage Auctions Comments on State of Video-Game Marketplace
Press Release...

Heritage prides itself on transparency,...

...Heritage Auctions settled for $1.2 million to avoid protracted litigation and admitted no wrongdoing...

 ...This settlement had nothing to do Heritage Auctions.

 

Robert Wilonsky, Communications Director

 

[comicwiz]

On 8/30/2021 at 2:46 AM, HotKey said:

Without the (assumed) manipulation and broadcast of that propaganda, they would have never considered investing in that market. 

Quoted for truth.

I knew when my Dad called me asking if I had heard what was happening in the sportscard world, and when my brother called asking for advice on what comics they should buy to "invest in" that this was unlike any other manipulation I'd ever seen. Even though they knew of my collecting history, they had never before taken anything more than a passing interest in it, and were now suddenly wanting to "invest?"

And it's not just the uninformed. It's also anyone who took time off from collecting. Hasn't kept up with the hobby, maybe for a few years, maybe longer. This is how FOMO sets in. I was speaking with someone who had several copies of a high demand key he bought in his retirement, at the time we spoke, one of them (which he purchased for $8K was now only getting about $5K in the open market, that's a difference of roughly $3K from March 2021 to about July 2021. He said he'd keep it and try to get what he had in it, doubtful he will come anywhere close to what he paid for it. That was one of three copies of that book that he bought to "invest" in, the other two were higher grades, and consequently, he had much more into those.

Or what about cases like the ex-Merrill Lynch broker who was sentenced to 8 years for embezzling $3M from client accounts to buy collectibles? I bet none of you even heard of this guy, but he was buying up quite a bit over 8 years, and how I know is that some of my friends who transacted with him got a knock on the door or a call from the FBI to explain the items they acquired from him were evidence and considered proceeds of crime. None of the people caught up in this even wanted to talk about it within the community, and even though I knew, when I approached a fellow admin of a FB group about his transgressions, they didn't believe it was the same person they knew. They ignored it, and then he struck and scammed someone to the tune of $3K, and someone still stuck their neck out for him and covered that persons loss (which the person extending himself out never saw again). And what about all the clients whose money he stole to amass his vast collection, which just a month ago, reappeared for sale under some seized items auctions and sold for a pittance. Items that were once in the five figure range, were now barely breaking a few hundred. This guy single-handily drove up the price on a toy because he wasn't negotiating or trying to get a better price, he was resetting the prices on what was otherwise a toy no one cared about, but when people began to take notice that prices were being driven up, it became tulip-mania. This went on for the entire time he was busy burning through all the money he had stolen, and now the market on that toy has collapsed. This crime went on as far back as 2008, but he wasn't caught until 2018, when he was barred from FINRA, and it took two years for the sentencing. To this day, there are still people in the collecting communities he wandered into that have no idea what happened, but one person did a lot of damage to people's livelihoods and pretty much caused a mini crash to occur within select items he was known to collect.

What do you think happens when someone is holding 2,000 Jordan's like Nat Turner is? In the case of the ex-ML broker, we saw how setting artificial prices in markets, creating a false sense of an upward trajectory and can't miss investment, gets people to burn away their life savings, over borrow, max out their credit cards, because the mindset is that they'll eventually get someone to pay more than they did. But it doesn't always work out that way when bubbles burst. To say nothing of all those victimless crimes, where accounts get cleaned out so "investors" caught up on the lure of easy money that these new asset classes boast, all blindly working together in unison to drive up the market. To this day, I know people that lost their homes in the 90's comic crash, and who have their inventory still holed-up in some basement or garage, and 30 years of moving around from rental property to rental property, lugging this stuff around with them, do not want to talk about how it all came crashing down. Asking for body counts when there's people in America who don't even believe anyone really died from covid is about par for the course thinking nowadays, so to explain the toll market manipulation has on the average person is probably falling on deaf ears. I guess once folks like Eric Niemann can go on YouTube, tell people he went out and asked for money from people he knew, and conditions those people as well as his audience to accept the fact that they may never see their investment back, it kind of sets the tone for what's to come.

Edited August 30, 2021 by comicwiz

[jimjum12]

On 8/30/2021 at 12:29 AM, southern cross said:

All kidding aside... that's probably worth some money. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

On 8/30/2021 at 1:01 AM, southern cross said:

From the video one is led to believe it was bought thru a auction

That is only one of the problems with the video. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

.

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 8/30/2021 at 1:44 PM, jimjum12 said:

On 8/30/2021 at 5:29 AM, southern cross said:

All kidding aside... that's probably worth some money. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

This definitely should be the new Forums anthem.... 

 

[jimjum12]

On 8/30/2021 at 1:17 AM, Bronty said:

The competing offer was a long established collector and someone who I suspect was more philosophically motivated to suppress than raise prices.  So no.   I don’t believe the competition  was coming from the perspective of trying to boost values at all IMO.      

The willingness to go public may have been a factor in the decision... Promotion and Public relations are important in an emerging market. I remember when I saw an article in the newspaper with Rotor selling a comic to, IIRC, Rogovin, or vice versa ? ... for a then record price... an Action 1 for $ 125,000 ? .... there was all kind of grumblings about how that was orchestrated to inflate the market, deceptive, yadda, yadda. I wish I had the details straight, but this happens with all collectibles... and those who see wrongdoing are often those who wanted the item to be cheaper. I wonder how many times David Q Bowers bought a coin for a record price and sold it for more and was accused of high treason ? GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by jimjum12