Facsimiles- Could they ruin the hobby? 1 1

[MattTheDuck]

On 10/8/2021 at 8:44 AM, Wolverinex said:

I mean, that would be really interesting because you wouldn't counterfeit FF1... that's too difficult and a pain.  You would target hot Moderns;  UF4, it's variants, those insane Scott Campbell variants, Ditko ASM 700 variant, BA 12, etc... it would be easy to get the paper for those...

I see it as a risk/reward question.  This is not like counterfeiting US currency, where the set-up is relatively easy and cheap and you want something that's common, easy to pass off as real and is likely to not even be considered as a counterfeit.  That's why USD counterfeiters make $20s and not $1,000s.  Comics would be more expensive to counterfeit and you can't flood the market with hundreds or thousands of the same issue.  It would be worth it to figure out how to make an untraceable high grade single copy of FF#1 worth $500,000 (or AF15 worth millions) as the risk of detection would be much lower and the reward much higher.  Send 1 a year to CGC and then an auction house.

There are all kinds of ways to identify counterfeit money - with a comic book?  Not so much.

[WolverineX]

On 10/8/2021 at 12:15 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I see it as a risk/reward question.  This is not like counterfeiting US currency, where the set-up is relatively easy and cheap and you want something that's common, easy to pass off as real and is likely to not even be considered as a counterfeit.  That's why USD counterfeiters make $20s and not $1,000s.  Comics would be more expensive to counterfeit and you can't flood the market with hundreds or thousands of the same issue.  It would be worth it to figure out how to make an untraceable high grade single copy of FF#1 worth $500,000 (or AF15 worth millions) as the risk of detection would be much lower and the reward much higher.  Send 1 a year to CGC and then an auction house.

There are all kinds of ways to identify counterfeit money - with a comic book?  Not so much.

I was thinking the opposite, just choose a hot modern.  Print 50 copies and you probably made your money back if not more... Plus more people can buy it and if no one's expecting a counterfeit most people would just accept it

[ExNihilo]

I didn't have a problem with facsimile's until UF4.  I think they're great as reader copies.  All other facsimile's have been easy to distinguish, but the UF4 was just WAY too close to the real deal.  So many casual collectors are going to get scammed thinking they've bought a 1st print.  If Marvel goes out of its way to label books as variants or lists the edition on the covers, then they should really put 'facsimile' somewhere on the cover (ideally under the book number).

[universal soldier]

On 10/8/2021 at 12:15 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I see it as a risk/reward question.  This is not like counterfeiting US currency, where the set-up is relatively easy and cheap and you want something that's common, easy to pass off as real and is likely to not even be considered as a counterfeit.  That's why USD counterfeiters make $20s and not $1,000s.  Comics would be more expensive to counterfeit and you can't flood the market with hundreds or thousands of the same issue.  It would be worth it to figure out how to make an untraceable high grade single copy of FF#1 worth $500,000 (or AF15 worth millions) as the risk of detection would be much lower and the reward much higher.  Send 1 a year to CGC and then an auction house.

There are all kinds of ways to identify counterfeit money - with a comic book?  Not so much.

 

On 10/8/2021 at 12:56 PM, Wolverinex said:

I was thinking the opposite, just choose a hot modern.  Print 50 copies and you probably made your money back if not more... Plus more people can buy it and if no one's expecting a counterfeit most people would just accept it

I think the point that @MattTheDuckmakes about a relatively easy and cheap set-up makes this too difficult to worry about. Maybe you'll get a few under the radar but unless you are set up and producing high quality reprints, it will be easy to detect by your average comic reader let alone anyone invested in the hobby. I think anyone here could tell the difference between a legit copy and an Office Depot variant. 

[universal soldier]

On 10/8/2021 at 1:31 PM, ExNihilo said:

I didn't have a problem with facsimile's until UF4.  I think they're great as reader copies.  All other facsimile's have been easy to distinguish, but the UF4 was just WAY too close to the real deal.  So many casual collectors are going to get scammed thinking they've bought a 1st print.  If Marvel goes out of its way to label books as variants or lists the edition on the covers, then they should really put 'facsimile' somewhere on the cover (ideally under the book number).

Agreed even though I haven't seen the facsimile.

 

Anyone have copy to share to see the difference? 

[Pat Thomas]

Facsimile copies are just the newest method scammers have latched onto. Doesn't CGC exist basically because people learned how to fix their damaged comics to avoid detection after they realized comics were becoming something people collected and were willing to pay for? Yes, it would be hard for a newbie to detect a lot of the tricks being used today, but the investing side of this hobby isn't for just anybody. I love comics, and I have since I was introduced to them over 40 years ago. It wasn't long after I started collecting Avengers and Amazing Spider-Man as a kid that I realized they needed to be cared for because they could hold value. But I bought them for the stories. The only difference was that I handled them more delicately. But the stories were what drew me in, and in the case of Marvel, want to learn about the other characters and back issues referenced in every issue. By default, all that exploration gave me enough knowledge to serve as a foundation when I came back into the hobby after long, long periods away. The latest as a 25-year layoff, but I never felt lost as I discovered what happened in all that time. With the experience I had in the past buying back issues, I knew there were things to look out for. Back in the day (and still today), a dealer could pass off a Marvel Tales reprint of ASM as the ASM of that number. I see people today pulling that with Fantasy Masterpieces and Silver Surfer, which actually have the same issue numbers. But somebody who has put in the time and knows this hobby won't fall for these things.

The scammers have always been there. Now they have much more visibility. People can invest how they want, and if some insufficiently_thoughtful_person wants to spend thousands of dollars on a comic that a knowledgeable collector could spot in a second, who's problem is that? It's not because ebay is awful, or the hobby is ruined. It's because some fool wants to get rich quick without learning the product, and there are always plenty of dishonest jerks willing to take money from fools.

[Gatsby77]

On 10/8/2021 at 1:39 PM, Pat Thomas said:

Facsimile copies are just the newest method scammers have latched onto. Doesn't CGC exist basically because people learned how to fix their damaged comics to avoid detection after they realized comics were becoming something people collected and were willing to pay for? Yes, it would be hard for a newbie to detect a lot of the tricks being used today, but the investing side of this hobby isn't for just anybody. I love comics, and I have since I was introduced to them over 40 years ago. It wasn't long after I started collecting Avengers and Amazing Spider-Man as a kid that I realized they needed to be cared for because they could hold value. But I bought them for the stories. The only difference was that I handled them more delicately. But the stories were what drew me in, and in the case of Marvel, want to learn about the other characters and back issues referenced in every issue. By default, all that exploration gave me enough knowledge to serve as a foundation when I came back into the hobby after long, long periods away. The latest as a 25-year layoff, but I never felt lost as I discovered what happened in all that time. With the experience I had in the past buying back issues, I knew there were things to look out for. Back in the day (and still today), a dealer could pass off a Marvel Tales reprint of ASM as the ASM of that number. I see people today pulling that with Fantasy Masterpieces and Silver Surfer, which actually have the same issue numbers. But somebody who has put in the time and knows this hobby won't fall for these things.

The scammers have always been there. Now they have much more visibility. People can invest how they want, and if some insufficiently_thoughtful_person wants to spend thousands of dollars on a comic that a knowledgeable collector could spot in a second, who's problem is that? It's not because ebay is awful, or the hobby is ruined. It's because some fool wants to get rich quick without learning the product, and there are always plenty of dishonest jerks willing to take money from fools.

Plus, this has been an issue as far back as the 1970s, with the Famous First Editions.

Yes, they were bigger than the original issues, but if you pulled off the outer cover, they were absolutely identical.

And some disreputable dealers sold them as the original books.

And...I actually got scammed by some of the JC Penney's reprints as well, although this was in the mid-90s. Specific issues were X-Men # 60 and Captain America # 241.

[WolverineX]

On 10/8/2021 at 3:11 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Plus, this has been an issue as far back as the 1970s, with the Famous First Editions.

Yes, they were bigger than the original issues, but if you pulled off the outer cover, they were absolutely identical.

And some disreputable dealers sold them as the original books.

And...I actually got scammed by some of the JC Penney's reprints as well, although this was in the mid-90s. Specific issues were X-Men # 60 and Captain America # 241.

I guess what if somebody created something like the JCPenney reprints except there was completely no difference except for something incredibly subtle.... may take a very long time before someone catches it. 

[ExNihilo]

On 10/8/2021 at 10:39 AM, universal soldier said:

Agreed even though I haven't seen the facsimile.

 

Anyone have copy to share to see the difference? 

[Math Teacher]

On 10/8/2021 at 11:15 AM, MattTheDuck said:

That's why USD counterfeiters make $20s and not $1,000s. 

FYI - The largest bills currently in circulation are $100 bills. That's why need such large suitcases when they have to transport money in the movies.
$1,000,000 = 10,000 $100 bills.

[kav]

I just got this baby.  Paid a pretty penny too-pls dont tell me its some kind of reprint-

[Mercury Man]

On 10/9/2021 at 12:30 AM, kav said:

I just got this baby.  Paid a pretty penny too-pls dont tell me its some kind of reprint-

Well it says 'Limited' so it's legit!  You noob!

[kav]

On 10/8/2021 at 9:52 PM, Mercury Man said:

Well it says 'Limited' so it's legit!  You noob!

SCORE!

[Mercury Man]

 

On 10/9/2021 at 12:52 AM, kav said:

SCORE!

Jeebus that was quick.  Who sleeps less, you or me?

[kav]

On 10/8/2021 at 9:54 PM, Mercury Man said:

 

Jeebus that was quick.  Who sleeps less, you or me?

SCORE!

[Courageous Cat]

On 10/8/2021 at 11:14 AM, Ride the Tiger said:

IMO the hobby is already ruined. The average person can't afford key books. Ebay used to be a great place to buy and sell comics. Now it's a big collection of scammers. You used to be able to get your submissions back in a month or two. Now you wait 2X, 3X, whatever TATs are right now it's crazy. Don't get me started on the QC issues. I could go on but I think you get the point.

according to comic tom, this hobby is awash with gold nuggets in every corner . Just take a second mortgage on your home and yes, eBay blows and so does that company that grades funny books 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Courageous Cat

[waaaghboss]

On 10/8/2021 at 12:11 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Plus, this has been an issue as far back as the 1970s, with the Famous First Editions.

Yes, they were bigger than the original issues, but if you pulled off the outer cover, they were absolutely identical.

And some disreputable dealers sold them as the original books.

And...I actually got scammed by some of the JC Penney's reprints as well, although this was in the mid-90s. Specific issues were X-Men # 60 and Captain America # 241.

Is that the one with the sauron cover?  Dug one out of my long boxes and thought I had an og xmen till I popped it open and saw a stridex ad 😀

[Gatsby77]

On 10/9/2021 at 4:02 PM, waaaghboss said:

Is that the one with the sauron cover?  Dug one out of my long boxes and thought I had an og xmen till I popped it open and saw a stridex ad 😀

It is. Similar experience and disappointment.

[profholt82]

There's always going to be scummy fellas in the hobby, that's life. If you want to buy an expensive book, just get a graded one. Problem solved. 

[Gatsby77]

On 10/9/2021 at 5:04 PM, profholt82 said:

There's always going to be scummy fellas in the hobby, that's life. If you want to buy an expensive book, just get a graded one. Problem solved. 

Sure - but in my case, this happened before CGC existed.

And - who would think to check copies of a modern like Captain America 241, esp. when it's in a $1-$5 box?