CGC vs CBCS for restored GA books 1 1

[Grottu]

CBCS has been twirling its skirts at potential customers lately with a list of 20 reasons why it's supposedly "better" than CGC. The only point that sorta resonates with me is the use of a common blue label for universal, restored and conserved grades. I'm about to submit some GA books I've been restoring or conserving (most recent is an extensive restoration of a .5 Superman 16 that I've posted about in my journal here). I prefer CGC slabs for a number of reasons, but when it comes to restoreds, I'm wondering if the argument about a non-purple label is persuasive, particularly with older books for which the market tends to be a little more forgiving. I HATE the color variations of CGC labels and the stigma that attaches to some of them...

Edited December 31, 2021 by Grottu

[KCOComics]

While I agree about the stigma associated with purple and green labels, I do think they serve an important purpose.  At the least they call attention to the work that's been done or whatever the qualification is.  Which is good for trigger happy buyers. 

Now, granted, a buyer should put in the minimal effort of reading a label before buying. And maybe I just drink the cool aide, but I think the label system promotes transparency and has been very important to the advancement of the hobby. 

[Grottu]

On 1/1/2022 at 2:01 PM, KCOComics said:

While I agree about the stigma associated with purple and green labels, I do think they serve an important purpose.  At the least they call attention to the work that's been done or whatever the qualification is.  Which is good for trigger happy buyers. 

Now, granted, a buyer should put in the minimal effort of reading a label before buying. And maybe I just drink the cool aide, but I think the label system promotes transparency and has been very important to the advancement of the hobby. 

Good points, can’t argue with any of that. Disclosure and transparency are paramount, and I actually think CGC’s criteria for grading restoration and conservation are very good and (mostly) well conceived. I guess my gripe, selfishly, boils down to the colored label system. Using a common blue label isn’t a matter of trying to pull one over on a careless buyer, but allowing the owner to display or show off a book without the notorious purple header being the first thing you notice.

[Roger66]

On 1/1/2022 at 2:01 PM, KCOComics said:

While I agree about the stigma associated with purple and green labels, I do think they serve an important purpose.  At the least they call attention to the work that's been done or whatever the qualification is.  Which is good for trigger happy buyers. 

Now, granted, a buyer should put in the minimal effort of reading a label before buying. And maybe I just drink the cool aide, but I think the label system promotes transparency and has been very important to the advancement of the hobby. 

I 100% agree.  No offense but I loathe restored books and avoid them like the plague .  I recognize, however, that I may be in a distinct & shrinking minority but that is how I feel. The immediate recognition that CGC provides with a restored label is just another reason why I don't & won't submit books to CBCS.  Minimizing the 'stigma' that CBCS labels offers you is IMO another way of saying 'take advantage of the less sophisticated buyers.'  Restored is restored and the label needs to speak it loud & clear - stick with CGC.  My 2-cents. 

[Grottu]

On 1/1/2022 at 3:04 PM, Roger66 said:

I 100% agree.  No offense but I loathe restored books and avoid them like the plague .  I recognize, however, that I may be in a distinct & shrinking minority but that is how I feel. The immediate recognition that CGC provides with a restored label is just another reason why I don't & won't submit books to CBCS.  Minimizing the 'stigma' that CBCS labels offers you is IMO another way of saying 'take advantage of the less sophisticated buyers.'  Restored is restored and the label needs to speak it loud & clear - stick with CGC.  My 2-cents. 

If nothing else comes of the new year, at least I’ve now learned there’s a can-of-worms emoji 😆

[Grottu]

On 1/1/2022 at 3:04 PM, Roger66 said:

I 100% agree.  No offense but I loathe restored books and avoid them like the plague .  I recognize, however, that I may be in a distinct & shrinking minority but that is how I feel. The immediate recognition that CGC provides with a restored label is just another reason why I don't & won't submit books to CBCS.  Minimizing the 'stigma' that CBCS labels offers you is IMO another way of saying 'take advantage of the less sophisticated buyers.'  Restored is restored and the label needs to speak it loud & clear - stick with CGC.  My 2-cents. 

I hear ya, We disagree philosophically about restoration, but I respect your commitment to the integrity of the hobby, always good to see. 🙏

[Roger66]

On 1/2/2022 at 12:44 PM, Grottu said:

I hear ya, We disagree philosophically about restoration, but I respect your commitment to the integrity of the hobby, always good to see. 🙏

More and more of my fellow collectors embrace restoration esp. since that might be the only way one can ever afford say a Cap #1 or an under 10 issue of Action Comics for ex.  Perhaps I am old school or just in a very distinct foreign school where I avoid incomplete comics, signatures on covers, detached covers, trimming, CT etc - I do 100% respect this crazy hobby with all its' niches & expanding diversities.  I am grateful not everyone thinks or acts on comics like I do for obvious reasons.  Back to CBCS - the company had a window of opportunity IMO to be more competitive with CGC but in their desire to attract a wider consumer audience I think they sacrificed quality control for quantity control.  My 2-cents. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Roger66

[Grottu]

On 1/2/2022 at 12:53 PM, Roger66 said:

More and more of my fellow collectors embrace restoration esp. since that might be the only way one can ever afford say a Cap #1 or an under 10 issue of Action Comics for ex.  Perhaps I am old school or just in a very distinct foreign school where I avoid incomplete comics, signatures on covers, detached covers, trimming, CT etc - I do 100% respect this crazy hobby with all its' niches & expanding diversities.  I am grateful not everyone thinks or acts on comics like I do for obvious reasons.  Back to CBCS - the company had a window of opportunity IMO to be more competitive with CGC but in their desire to attract a wider consumer audience I think they sacrificed quality control for quantity control.  My 2-cents. 

Yeah, the idea of submitting to CBCS worries me a bit for the reason you cite. There was that whole flap with the Meyers’, who didn’t like CGC’s grading of their restored work and so they went to CBCS and got higher marks. That’s certainly not my motivation. I respect CGC’s grading and am willing to take my lumps if they think my work sucks. Again, it’s just the encapsulation and display issue for me.

[Randall Ries]

On 1/1/2022 at 3:04 PM, Roger66 said:

I 100% agree.  No offense but I loathe restored books and avoid them like the plague .  I recognize, however, that I may be in a distinct & shrinking minority but that is how I feel. The immediate recognition that CGC provides with a restored label is just another reason why I don't & won't submit books to CBCS.  Minimizing the 'stigma' that CBCS labels offers you is IMO another way of saying 'take advantage of the less sophisticated buyers.'  Restored is restored and the label needs to speak it loud & clear - stick with CGC.  My 2-cents. 

Do you really mean "Take advantage of buyers who can't read"? The fact is the purple label can make up the mind of a buyer immediately. That is unsophisticated. But just my opinion.

If I am to put a lot of money onto a book, I sort of want to be forced to read the label. If I see a purple label, I'm already prejudiced. If I read a CBCS blue label, I can get the same information I need without the purple, green thingy. It makes me consider the book info more closely. I am paying attention. If I see the words moderate or extensive, I'm out. Purple or blue. Slight? Then I can decide if I can live with slight CT or right edge trimmed. I can.

I'm sorry for those that need a color schematic to make their minds up for them. I prefer doing my diligence. If someone dumps $4k into a book without seriously researching the label that's right there in front of them, well what can I say? What can THEY say? "Oh no! I didn't read the information! I wanna refund!"

[Roger66]

On 1/2/2022 at 7:18 PM, Randall Ries said:

Do you really mean "Take advantage of buyers who can't read"? The fact is the purple label can make up the mind of a buyer immediately. That is unsophisticated. But just my opinion.

If I am to put a lot of money onto a book, I sort of want to be forced to read the label. If I see a purple label, I'm already prejudiced. If I read a CBCS blue label, I can get the same information I need without the purple, green thingy. It makes me consider the book info more closely. I am paying attention. If I see the words moderate or extensive, I'm out. Purple or blue. Slight? Then I can decide if I can live with slight CT or right edge trimmed. I can.

I'm sorry for those that need a color schematic to make their minds up for them. I prefer doing my diligence. If someone dumps $4k into a book without seriously researching the label that's right there in front of them, well what can I say? What can THEY say? "Oh no! I didn't read the information! I wanna refund!"

 I prefer the open & shut nature of the CGC purple labels as opposed to an interpretive dance of sorts with a CBCS label  I don't even want to read a label if it is purple because I am passing.  The color schematic is about immediately separating 2 very different types of comics wherein many collectors just don't want to even bother with a restored book. When scrolling through eBay, IG or looking at comics on a wall at a convention - just the ease of quickly viewing and ignoring CGC purple labels is a bonus. I guess we can agree to disagree but as a consumer I prefer CGC's format. 

[Randall Ries]

On 1/2/2022 at 8:06 PM, Roger66 said:

ignoring CGC purple labels is a bonus.

There is a Bat #1 in a purple holder. The only restoration done was.....cover cleaned. So, the resale value takes a hit because of the color of the label. Fact is, it's a Bat 1 as a Nine - Pernt - Oh. Unfairly penalized because some 75 years of light grime and particles were removed by apparently a liquid bath. The fact that CGC/CSS or whatever subdivision of CGC won't reveal their "dry" cleaning method leads me to believe that there has an aqueous element to it. Some sort of steam cleaning. I read something here awhile back that alluded to it. Huh. Last I heard, steam is aqueous. It isn't a gas. Not a solid either. Two faced at best. Manipulative at worst.

I would own that book all day and ask full blue label value if I were to sell it. As you pointed out, prejudice is immediate with a color scheme. CBCS blue at least allows a buyer to read the statistics, thereby having full disclosure. If 90% of the book isn't even the book, then I want to read about it. I DO appreciate the nature of disclosing restoration. Colored labels make it easy to discern. But it also can lead to in many cases complete dismissal of possibly owning a book that isn't as bad as the purple label make it out to be.

[Roger66]

On 1/2/2022 at 8:23 PM, Randall Ries said:

There is a Bat #1 in a purple holder. The only restoration done was.....cover cleaned. So, the resale value takes a hit because of the color of the label. Fact is, it's a Bat 1 as a Nine - Pernt - Oh. Unfairly penalized because some 75 years of light grime and particles were removed by apparently a liquid bath. The fact that CGC/CSS or whatever subdivision of CGC won't reveal their "dry" cleaning method leads me to believe that there has an aqueous element to it. Some sort of steam cleaning. I read something here awhile back that alluded to it. Huh. Last I heard, steam is aqueous. It isn't a gas. Not a solid either. Two faced at best. Manipulative at worst.

I would own that book all day and ask full blue label value if I were to sell it. As you pointed out, prejudice is immediate with a color scheme. CBCS blue at least allows a buyer to read the statistics, thereby having full disclosure. If 90% of the book isn't even the book, then I want to read about it. I DO appreciate the nature of disclosing restoration. Colored labels make it easy to discern. But it also can lead to in many cases complete dismissal of possibly owning a book that isn't as bad as the purple label make it out to be.

Ummm..   a BAT#1 you say  - that is an obvious major exception to our discussion and I would certainly not pass that up cover cleaned, missing back-cover in a blue, purple or raw.  There is no hit there regardless of its' encasing with so very few around and so many major high-rollers in play. 

[Randall Ries]

On 1/2/2022 at 8:34 PM, Roger66 said:

Ummm..   a BAT#1 you say  - that is an obvious major exception to our discussion and I would certainly not pass that up cover cleaned, missing back-cover in a blue, purple or raw.  There is no hit there regardless of its' encasing with so very few around and so many major high-rollers in play. 

It is a beauty. A complete, 9.0 o/w pager with only dirt removed. The buyer got it for a great price. Heritage says the owner is open to offers. Who among us would be trite enough to offer what the book sold for 1% over prime? In my mind, the book is unrestored. And yet, there are hundreds of books in that same category that got nailed for the same thing. Like an HOS 92 in 9.4 with a dot of black color touch at the top of the spine. The purple is a turn off. But in blue explaining the dot, it's less of a stigma to me. The CGC colors add insult to injury to me. I see CBCS books and I read the label before buying.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Randall Ries

[Sauce Dog]

I have zero problem with conserved or restored books, and I prefer the clear distinction between labels, so I find CBCS' approach to such things lacking. I would not want to compromise the classification and transparency of the hobby simply to appeal to some collectors OCD on displaying their books.

The stigma isn't with the label, it's with people not understanding or appreciating the varied levels of work that goes into such things and generalizing (not all restored books are amateur color touched trimmed franken-books). I do love the new label for Conservation, as that level of work was being unfairly stigmatized by being lumped in with all restoration (a backwards approach compared to other paper industry standards) but should still stand out from an untouched Universal grade.

[Grottu]

On 1/3/2022 at 9:05 AM, Sauce Dog said:

I have zero problem with conserved or restored books, and I prefer the clear distinction between labels, so I find CBCS' approach to such things lacking. I would not want to compromise the classification and transparency of the hobby simply to appeal to some collectors OCD on displaying their books.

The stigma isn't with the label, it's with people not understanding or appreciating the varied levels of work that goes into such things and generalizing (not all restored books are amateur color touched trimmed franken-books). I do love the new label for Conservation, as that level of work was being unfairly stigmatized by being lumped in with all restoration (a backwards approach compared to other paper industry standards) but should still stand out from an untouched Universal grade.

I don't know that I'd call it an OCD thing. Seems to me the purpose of encapsulation is twofold: enhancing resale (because it preserves the integrity of the grade) and display. You can disclose all necessary details to accomplish the former without eroding the latter. When I look at these two books on my shelf, there's no need to be immediately, glaringly reminded that when I was 12 yrs old I stupidly cut out a coupon on pg. 13 of WBN 32.

[Sauce Dog]

On 1/3/2022 at 9:31 AM, Grottu said:

I don't know that I'd call it an OCD thing. Seems to me the purpose of encapsulation is twofold: enhancing resale (because it preserves the integrity of the grade) and display. You can disclose all necessary details to accomplish the former without eroding the latter. When I look at these two books on my shelf, there's no need to be immediately, glaringly reminded that when I was 12 yrs old I stupidly cut out a coupon on pg. 13 of WBN 32.

#NeverForget

For sure, but in your case it wasn't a requirement to grade those books 'for display' as a top loader would have sufficed and looked perhaps even more impressive (and I'm sure you most certainly didn't slab them for re-sale purposes at this point). People who grade their books for display are also in some way wanting to show off the GRADE of the book, that is a great deal of the 'flex' involved with collecting these days (and one reason why any non-blue labels are stigmatized). A certified grade says "YES, I INDEED OWN THIS. Not a reprint!" and "This book is objectionably better than others below its grade! Behold my power!"   (I know plenty of people who don't consider they actually own a book worthy of showing off until it has been graded...even if the book is so low value and poor condition it isn't worth grading in the first place.  )

The primary importance of grading is as you said being the integrity of the grade for resale, in which case it should be made absolutely clear what the book is. Could a compromise be found between all these labels and simply adding in information to a Universal blue label, sure, but at the end of the day this clarity to me is more valuable (especially in a world of questionable sellers and uneducated buyers. It's easy to hand wave away those being screwed by online auctions as 'not having read the label' or not having done proper due diligence, but these are real problems and a simple clear label is a great visual indicator of data. Conveying important information WITHOUT the need to read lots or hunt for info is the best possible way for any sort of packaging labeling)

[theCapraAegagrus]

CBCS is delusional if they think that harboring all conditions of books under 1 color of label makes them 'superior'. The fact that their witnessed and verified signature labels are the same color is quite disgusting IMO.

One might assume that they don't have different label because they're not as good at detecting restoration...

[PovertyRow]

On 1/4/2022 at 6:19 AM, SuperMega said:

Well, their resto expert was CGC's resto expert for like 10 years, so I hope he knows what he's doing 

Indeed, Steve Borock is not only a premiere restoration detector but was also the President and Head Grader for CGC for those years. One of CBCS' head graders West Stephan was also a CGC lead grader and restoration detector for many years. So we have the past CGC President, resto expert and head grader and a CGC GA lead grader and resto expert in West both at CBCS and the company does not know what they are doing? Delusional indeed!

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/4/2022 at 1:22 PM, PovertyRow said:

So we have the past CGC President, resto expert and head grader and a CGC GA lead grader and resto expert in West both at CBCS and the company does not know what they are doing?

To be clear, this does not align with what I said whatsoever.

[PovertyRow]

On 1/4/2022 at 5:21 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

On 1/4/2022 at 5:21 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

One might assume that they don't have different label because they're not as good at detecting restoration...

 

Actually I was referencing this part of your post. The idea those folk are not as good at detecting resto is, well, to be gentle, incorrect.