THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[jcjames]

"guy power" at the expense of and putting down of women today is called "toxic masculinity". But I don't remember see much of that in the pre-Endgame MCU movies. 

"girl power" at the expense of and putting down of men today is called "female empowerment". Seems one can't avoid slamming into this a lot in Disney & post-Endgame MCU. Haven't seen The Marvels though, so the jury is out. 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by jcjames

[kimik]

On 11/9/2023 at 9:42 AM, VintageComics said:

X-men are probably the top franchise after Spidey now but they were HORRIBLE in the mid 60's after Kirby left. I only collected the title as a completist but between roughly '65 and until Neal Adams started it was pretty bad. 

If many younger people don't know, Marvel quite literally put Neal Adams on to save the title. From what I understand Adams was so confident he only wanted to be put on failing titles so he could ressurrect them and he did exactly that, everywhere he went. Talk about a man's man. Dude had gonads the size of Kansas.

 

Just like DC did prior to that with putting Adams on GL, Deadman Strange Adventures, Tomahawk, etc. after his fantastic Batman and Tec runs.

I have always wondered how much input he had into the scripts that O'Neill did on those Batman/Tec/GL runs looking at his follow on success at Marvel. Being an Adams fanboy, I like to think he was more than just an iconic artist.

[kimik]

Here is the Marvels review from the Globe and Mail this morning. 

FILM REVIEW

Sloppy and incomprehensible, The Marvels reveals a superhero machine in full breakdown mode

BARRY HERTZ

PUBLISHED 5 HOURS AGOUPDATED 2 HOURS AGO

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• The Marvels
• Directed by Nia DaCosta
• Written by Nia DaCosta, Megan McDonnell and Elissa Karasik
• Starring Brie Larson, Teyonah Parris and Iman Vellani
• Classification PG; 105 minutes
• Opens in theatres Nov. 10

In their exhaustive and occasionally exhausting new book, MCU: The Reign of Marvel Studios, journalists Joanna Robinson, Dave Gonzales and Gavin Edwards paint an impressive and ultimately terrifying portrait of a blockbuster behemoth that has altered the course of our world more than even a super-powered cosmic titan might be capable of.

Over the course of 500-plus pages – most of them rigorously reported, though some lacking the necessary skepticism when it comes to celebrating Marvel’s fortunes of war – the three authors chronicle how one studio, specifically one producer named Kevin Feige, has gone from scrappy hero to power-mad villain, turning fun and sharp cinematic adventures into the kind of nonsensical hubristic goop that has seeped into the dream-factory floors of all its Hollywood competitors.

But it would take a moviegoer more blind than Matt “Daredevil” Murdock to not recognize that Feige and his acolytes are increasingly losing their Infinity Gauntlet-strong grip on the Marvel Cinematic Universe they’ve created. The vaunted “Phase Four” of the MCU (they’ve got both phases and acronyms!) was a mixed bag of entertaining fan-service (Spider-Man: No Way Home), faux-ambitious stabs at prestige cinema (Eternals) and overstuffed nonsense that only exists to serve as connective tissue to the next disposable adventure (Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, Thor: Love and Thunder).

And then there’s the current “Phase Five” era, which has so far given us one abomination (if not the Hulk bad guy called Abomination) after another, up to and including this week’s new release, The Marvels. What was once whiz-bang imaginative and sky-high thrilling – disarming despite its armaments – has imploded spectacularly. And Marvel – and The Marvels – has no one to blame but themselves.

Technically a direct sequel to 2019′s Captain Marvel – a dastardly military recruitment ad dressed up in the guise of feminism that still managed to feature charming performances from Brie Larson, Samuel L. Jackson and Ben Mendelsohn – The Marvels arrives four years, two MCU “phases,” and way too many forgettable Disney+ series later.

Open this photo in gallery:

Brie Larson as Captain Marvel/Carol Danvers and Iman Vellani as Ms. Marvel/Kamala Khan in The Marvels. The talented Vellani delivers the kind of contagious enthusiasm that buoys every single second of her screen time.LAURA RADFORD/DISNEY

The best movies of 2023 (so far)

Directed by Nia DaCosta – like many MCU recruits, a promising young American indie director seemingly lured into Feige’s industrial machine by the promise of a big payday – the film pairs Larson’s unstoppable Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel (a human air-force pilot imbued with cosmic strength) with the similarly super-powered space-scientist Monica Rambeau (Teyonah Parris) and the teenage hero Kamala Khan (Iman Vellani), who goes by Ms. Marvel and idolizes Carol. Compelled to join forces with Avengers honcho Nick Fury (Jackson, back again) to stop a powerful alien warrior (Zawe Ashton) who holds a personal grudge against Carol, the three “Marvels” kick as many anonymous butts in choppy action scenes as they gaze at glowy CGI thingamajigs (this time called “quantum bands”).

Blessed be any casual MCU-goer who can piece together exactly what is happening on a scene to scene basis, as a full understanding seems to require Talmudic study of not only the many Avengers films that have since followed Larson’s first superhero outing, but also at least three Disney+ television series (WandaVision, Ms. Marvel, and Secret Invasion are key texts) plus one other movie that [redacted on pain of being excommunicated by Disney]. The Marvels is just that kind of production, a white board of sticky notes that magically coalesces, slowly and grudgingly, into a feature-length motion picture that merely acts as a long advertisement for the next.

Open this photo in gallery:

Flerkittens in Marvel Studios' The Marvels.MARVEL STUDIOS/DISNEY

Still, not every element in The Marvels reeks of such rank corporate zealotry. While Larson looks to be eyeing the exit every other scene and the rather flat Parris has even less enthusiasm for her role, Vellani delivers the kind of contagious, just-happy-to-be-here enthusiasm that buoys every single second of her screen time. Not every one of her comic beats lands – and there are just a few too many scenes featuring her parents and brother that elbow, instead of tickle, the ribs – but the talented young actor gives it her absolute all.

 

There are also two quick gags that hint at either DaCosta’s comic ambitions or the sly wit of one of the film’s three credited screenwriters. The first involves an alien planet where everyone communicates through song (try to speak without rhythm or pitch, and no one will understand you), while the second imagines an abandon-ship moment in which a litter of kittens are used as life-preservers in a moment that could only be conjured by H.P. Lovecraft. Yet both instances are only momentarily inspired – DaCosta doesn’t seem to have the verve to embrace or amplify the musical conceit (it’s executed with an energy halfway between Bollywood and Off-Off-Way-Off-Broadway), while the cat bit doesn’t make that much sense when you spend half a second to think about its mechanics.

Thinking about things, though, is the wrong way to approach The Marvels. If it absolutely must be endured, then just lie back and think of Kevin.

[VintageComics]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:09 PM, kimik said:

It was a B title in the 80s. The 80s was ASM, X-Titles (X-Men/Wolverine/New Mutants/X-Factor), and Punisher for Marvel (by the late 80s Marvel appeared to a have a policy where the Punisher had to be in every second book each week....). The FF was a second or third tier title for those of us that did not grow up with them in the 60s. The big two for each of Marvel and DC are the same now as they were in the 80s.

There is NO WAY I would call Fantastic Four a B title in the 80's. 

The title was incredibly good reading, it sold well and it was well collected. The 80's would have been my peak collecting years as I got married in 1991 and dropped out of comics for a decade and I vividly remember FF #1 being the top book through most of the 80s in the OSPG.

No. Way, IMO. 

Does anyone else agree that the FF was a B title in the 80's?

How old are you? Are you in your 40's, 50's or 60's? I always assumed you were my age but now I'm not so sure.

 

[mr_highgrade]

Speaking of A-listers...this chart never made any sense to me. How did Wonder-man make the Super-Heavyweights? Spidey, should at least be considered a Heavyweight, anyone remember Spidey #33? And how the hell is Captain America in the same class as Daredevil and Moon Knight. 

 

[fantastic_four]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:12 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I was 9 when Wolvie's series came out, and by the time it hit my radar at 10 years old, the value of issue #1 had hit $5, which I spent half my allowance on buying it, and that was 1983 - which is a really neat memory. I can still remember the shop, the comic on the wall and being super excited when the guy sold it to me.

I'd say Wolverine was gaining big-time popularity by then. I can't exactly remember, but I don't think Wolverine had crossover appearances before his Limited Series, and I think the first one after his limited was a Daredevil issue. So, I'd say by 1981 people were abuzz wanting Wolverine to be seen more - and Marvel slowly fed into that.

I was introduced to him around 1981 by the X-Men.  He almost single-handedly drove the success of that title then and now, although interest in him in parallel drove interest in mutants as a whole, so now the whole team is pretty popular.

This is all evident in the films as well.  Once Marvel could cross Spidey over they did, and they've kept doing it.  Same with Wolverine at Fox, they maximized him as the center of the X-Men films and then his solo films knowing he was their biggest asset.

[kimik]

Would Venom be considered Marvel A-list now?

 

[VintageComics]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:12 PM, PopKulture said:

It is a pretty epic post. It’s thoughtful and covers a lot of ground. I’m sure there are people who disagree with various points, but its tone and candor invite no vitriol in kind.  

The problem is that it's long and most people's attention spans will avoid it and they'll miss the gold in there. 

It is quite literally the greatest post on the MCU I've ever read with articulation, intelligence, insight and sensitivity I've never found elsewhere. 

This is what real journalism and discussion USED to be like. 

[fantastic_four]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:19 PM, VintageComics said:

Does anyone else agree that the FF was a B title in the 80's?

You're essentially asking if the FF was as popular as Spidey or the X-Men in the 80s.  The answer is clearly no, it wasn't.  FF was my own favorite title during the Byrne years, but even then I knew it wasn't as popular as Spidey or X-Men.

FF was headed towards likely cancellation before Byrne revived it.  He elevated it from C or D level back up to a tier below Spidey and the X-Men.  Same thing happened with Frank Miller on Daredevil, he revived interest in it, but he didn't catapult it to the level of Marvel's top heroes, he mostly saved it from possible cancellation.

Edited November 9, 2023 by fantastic_four

[PopKulture]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:19 AM, VintageComics said:

There is NO WAY I would call Fantastic Four a B title in the 80's. 

The title was incredibly good reading, it sold well and it was well collected. The 80's would have been my peak collecting years as I got married in 1991 and dropped out of comics for a decade and I vividly remember FF #1 being the top book through most of the 80s in the OSPG.

No. Way, IMO. 

Does anyone else agree that the FF was a B title in the 80's?

How old are you? Are you in your 40's, 50's or 60's? I always assumed you were my age but now I'm not so sure.

 

No chance. A-list all the way. Through the Byrne era and a bit of lingering afterwards. They were the First Family. It’s myopic to think otherwise.

[kimik]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:21 AM, fantastic_four said:

On 11/9/2023 at 10:12 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I was 9 when Wolvie's series came out, and by the time it hit my radar at 10 years old, the value of issue #1 had hit $5, which I spent half my allowance on buying it, and that was 1983 - which is a really neat memory. I can still remember the shop, the comic on the wall and being super excited when the guy sold it to me.

I'd say Wolverine was gaining big-time popularity by then. I can't exactly remember, but I don't think Wolverine had crossover appearances before his Limited Series, and I think the first one after his limited was a Daredevil issue. So, I'd say by 1981 people were abuzz wanting Wolverine to be seen more - and Marvel slowly fed into that.

I was introduced to him around 1981 by the X-Men.  He almost single-handedly drove the success of that title then and now, although interest in him in parallel drove interest in mutants as a whole, so now the whole team is pretty popular.

This is all evident in the films as well.  Once Marvel could cross Spidey over they did, and they've kept doing it.  Same with Wolverine at Fox, they maximized him as the center of the X-Men films and then his solo films knowing he was their biggest asset.

The X-men were definitely the big Marvel franchise when I started reading then collecting comics as a kid in the mid 80s. My first book was UXM #211 due to the shredded Wolverine cover. I bought an FF a few months later and could never understand why it had the "World's Greatest Comic" tagline when it sucked so badly compared to X-Men, ASM and Batman at the time....

[kimik]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:19 AM, VintageComics said:

There is NO WAY I would call Fantastic Four a B title in the 80's. 

The title was incredibly good reading, it sold well and it was well collected. The 80's would have been my peak collecting years as I got married in 1991 and dropped out of comics for a decade and I vividly remember FF #1 being the top book through most of the 80s in the OSPG.

No. Way, IMO. 

Does anyone else agree that the FF was a B title in the 80's?

How old are you? Are you in your 40's, 50's or 60's? I always assumed you were my age but now I'm not so sure.

 

I am in my 40s. The FF were dead when I started buying comics as a kid with UXM #211. No one I knew around my age read/collected the title. It was UXM, ASM, Batman, GI Joe, Transformers and the TMNT. 

[PopKulture]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:26 AM, kimik said:

The X-men were definitely the big Marvel franchise when I started reading then collecting comics as a kid in the mid 80s. My first book was UXM #211 due to the shredded Wolverine cover. I bought an FF a few months later and could never understand why it had the "World's Greatest Comic" tagline when it sucked so badly compared to X-Men, ASM and Batman at the time....

You’re discounting legacy. You can’t take a period of two weeks in 2012 (if he ever had them!) where Tom Brady played bad and somehow declare he wasn’t an a-list quarterback. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by PopKulture

[Bosco685]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:15 PM, kimik said:

Thinking about things, though, is the wrong way to approach The Marvels. If it absolutely must be endured, then just lie back and think of Kevin.

Ouch

[VintageComics]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:14 PM, kimik said:

I have always wondered how much input he had into the scripts that O'Neill did on those Batman/Tec/GL runs looking at his follow on success at Marvel. Being an Adams fanboy, I like to think he was more than just an iconic artist.

Comics were made the Marvel way, so it was a collaboration and you can easily tell the difference in storytelling between Marvel and DC comics of the same era. They had different flavors when reading them.

In DC stories the artist and writer were definitely separate entities. The storytelling felt more wooden and dry. 

Marvel's stories felt synergistic and exciting by comparison, but if you remember when Neal Adams took over Batman and GL at DC, the flavor of the story writing changed, and I bet Neal Adams brought over some of that Marvel magic to DC. 

It wasn't just the art that made Adam's work great. It was the overall story telling experience and you can only have that with writers and artists collaborating together. 

My apologies for forgetting to mention Denny O'Neill. The guy was brilliant. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:26 AM, kimik said:

The X-men were definitely the big Marvel franchise when I started reading then collecting comics as a kid in the mid 80s. My first book was UXM #211 due to the shredded Wolverine cover. I bought an FF a few months later and could never understand why it had the "World's Greatest Comic" tagline when it sucked so badly compared to X-Men, ASM and Batman at the time....

Claremont's penchant for dropping tidbits here and there in stories, then following up a year later on things was really what made X-Men a great read. He had such a great stable of characters to work with that hadn't been pigeonholed yet. My first X-Men books were somewhere in the 170s, and by the 190s, I was really into it as a kid, even though I was probably too young to pick up on a lot of the drama there. Keeping him on as the writer for all those years made me practically fanatical towards the X-franchise by the time I was in my early 20s.

[fantastic_four]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:26 PM, kimik said:

I bought an FF a few months later and could never understand why it had the "World's Greatest Comic" tagline when it sucked so badly compared to X-Men, ASM and Batman at the time....

That was Stan Lee taking a victory lap in 1962 in that exaggerated way he's always loved.  Writing Fantastic Four was a stretch at the time he did it in 1960 since superhero title sales had been falling for a decade, so when the sales numbers came in and it was a hit he started putting that tagline on starting with issue #4.  They've just stuck with it on and off ever since.

[PopKulture]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:21 AM, mr_highgrade said:

 And how the hell is Captain America in the same class as Daredevil and Moon Knight. 

 

 

 

Yeah, Cap was thoughtlessly ranked. I guess they forgot about the super-soldier serum. He didn’t just do push-ups and lift weights.  

[VintageComics]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:25 PM, fantastic_four said:

You're essentially asking if the FF was as popular as Spidey or the X-Men in the 80s.  The answer is clearly no, it wasn't.  FF was my own favorite title during the Byrne years, but even then I knew it wasn't as popular as Spidey or X-Men.

FF was headed towards likely cancellation before Byrne revived it.  He elevated it from C or D level back up to a tier below Spidey and the X-Men.  Same thing happened with Frank Miller on Daredevil, he revived interest in it, but he didn't catapult it to the level of Marvel's top heroes, he mostly saved it from possible cancellation.

 

On 11/9/2023 at 12:26 PM, kimik said:

The X-men were definitely the big Marvel franchise when I started reading then collecting comics as a kid in the mid 80s. My first book was UXM #211 due to the shredded Wolverine cover. I bought an FF a few months later and could never understand why it had the "World's Greatest Comic" tagline when it sucked so badly compared to X-Men, ASM and Batman at the time....

Imma point out an interesting point. 

You two are BOTH in your 40's, so about a decade younger than me. 

On 11/9/2023 at 12:25 PM, PopKulture said:

No chance. A-list all the way. Through the Byrne era and a bit of lingering afterwards. They were the First Family. It’s myopic to think otherwise.

 

On 11/9/2023 at 12:30 PM, PopKulture said:

Your discounting legacy. You can’t take a period of two weeks in 2012 (if he ever had them!) where Tom Brady played bad and somehow declare he wasn’t an a-list quarterback. 

You're probably in your 50s and older. 

------------------------------------------------------------

There is something to be said about legacy, taste and culture and I can't accept that FF wasn't an A lister in the 80's. They just weren't an A lister to a younger generation WHO WAS BORN IN THE 80's. 

Good God, people. HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY KNOW WHICH COMIC WAS POPULAR IN THE DECADE YOU WERE BORN WHEN YOU COULDN'T EVEN READ YET! 

This is the real problem with online discussions. Nuance is everything. 

If the FF weren't an A lister title, FF #1 wouldn't have been the most expensive SA Marvel key in the 80s (it was) and they wouldn't have been featured on so many licensed products. 

Were they more popular than Spidey? No. 

No TEAM will ever be as popular as a single character and I have no problem admitting they were likely in decline as Gen Y started getting interested in comics, but while Gen Y was in diapers, the FF were still considered not only A listers but had some of the best story telling of the 80's and likely were also still the top TEAM in the 90s.

[kimik]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:30 AM, VintageComics said:

Comics were made the Marvel way, so it was a collaboration and you can easily tell the difference in storytelling between Marvel and DC comics of the same era. They had different flavors when reading them.

In DC stories the artist and writer were definitely separate entities. The storytelling felt more wooden and dry. 

Marvel's stories felt synergistic and exciting by comparison, but if you remember when Neal Adams took over Batman and GL at DC, the flavor of the story writing changed, and I bet Neal Adams brought  some of that Marvel magic to DC. 

It wasn't just the art that made Adam's work great. It was the overall story telling experience and you can only have that with writers and artists collaborating together. 

My apologies for forgetting to mention Denny O'Neill. The guy was brilliant. 

I was exposed to the Adams/O'Neill Batman and Tec runs when I started collecting in the early 1990s and was blown away by how good the stories and artwork were for a DC book. Those two must have worked more closely together than the normal DC teams did as it was basically at a Marvel level of storytelling.