THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[1950's war comics]

On 11/12/2023 at 10:35 PM, VintageComics said:

First off, I don't mine Buzzetta's posts at all, but why doesn't anyone complain when HE posts off topic in movie threads?

Why do certain characters only complain when I'm posting off topic? Asking for a friend. 

Anybody? 

I genuinely don't care, I just find it funny that I get constant complaints but when Buzz posts pics of plumbing pr talks about dinner, nobody cares.

Well, actually I care. I enjoy posts like this. It's what makes us human. 

Moving on:

This is definitely part of it, but it is absolutely NOT the main reason.

The main reason is that Disney and other companies have an agreed upon system of operation, that much like in the blue collar world, they need to have a certain TYPE of content in their product to represent all sorts of people. It has to be delivered a certain way and with certain messaging. Their product needs to conform to certain ideals. This is unequivocally true. If anyone wants to see the hows and whys, all they need to do is ask.

This is WHY corporations are interfering with the art of story telling. 

A writer may want a certain type of character, or type of story and if the story doesn't conform to their strategy, they change it. But what they do in effect is they CHANGE THE ARTIST'S CREATION and add corporate content. 

Imagine a Zeppelin record being recorded, but in 1973, say...cowbell is all the rage. So they start putting cowbell in Zeppelin songs all over the place. 

But Zeppelin is in their "country and folk" era, and Cowbell doesn't belong, scream Jimmy Page and Robert Plant!!

"Well, I'm the record label owner, and I'm funding this record and the audience wants cowbell, so I WANT YOU TO PUT IN MORE COWBELL!"

So they put in cowbell everywhere, and it doesn't make sense to Plant, Page, Jones and Bonham. 

And the record tanks because there's too much cowbell. 

And then the Big Money guys blame the band.

And they all get fired and more Cowbell goes into the NEXT record in line.

 

This may sound funny, but the analogy is perfect and this is EXACTLY what is happening and why the movies are failing at the box office.

Just like in Spiderman 3. They had too many foreign corporate interests. Sony even ADMITTED to it. 

You want to see a movie that isn't failing? Find the movies that don't have too much cowbell and more true art in them.

That's what people want. 

thank you for explaining things that are easy to understand , it is often times hard to put down words one is thinking into print but it is an art you have mastered 

[paqart]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:20 PM, VintageComics said:

You have a wealth of examples you choose from, your replies are non-combative, factual, very articulate and pretty much close ended. I wish I could write like that.

I'd never said anything about the last bolded line (changing the race of Norse characters) but it's objectively strange and even ridiculous to have Norse characters played by non-Norse characters. 

To be fair, I didn't mind Edris Alba playing Heimdall very much, but him being very good looking helps people accept that role. The dude is a stud and because of that, back in 2011 most let it slide...but it always stood strange with me and I think with a lot of people. 

Imagine if Django in Django Unchained was played by Leonardo DeCaprio? 

This is a clear example of how viewers are expected to just accept things that are wholly unrealistic, objectively speaking and are contrary to the spirit of the truth.

Not a big deal as an isolated incident, but it starts to take much larger form when viewed in the context of the entire conversation. 

I like Elba as Heimdall also. However, if I was writing the script and was told I had to put a black actor in a lead role, I would have made him Loki, not Heimdall. The reason is that Loki is the adopted brother of Thor and is supposed to be another race.

[VintageComics]

On 11/13/2023 at 10:54 AM, drotto said:

But the messaging years ago seemed to lack the in your face or even abrasive qualities that it has take on in more recent times.  Almost a here is what I think, but if we disagree we can talk about it, and maybe still be friends. Also, creators would let the viewers judge for themselves. Now the creators attack and tend to get very combative when challenged.  It really feeds the worst on both sides of the issues.

It DOES feed the worst side on issue and it drives people further apart. There is a wedge being driven between both sides and most don't recognize it. 

On 11/13/2023 at 10:55 AM, paqart said:

And PS: Why was Loki, the adopted brother of Thor, played by Tom Hiddleston instead of Idris Elba? Why make Heimdall African/Norse when there is an adopted brother from another race in the script? 

You know, I glanced over this initially and wasn't sure what you were getting at and then it struck me. 

Why didn't they put Idris Elba into Loki's role? Great question on multiple levels. 

For example, if the goal was to represent African Americans, then why not put him into a LEAD role rather than a supporting role in the movie? It's patronising but disguised as something else.

And why wasn't Loki played by Idris? The answer is clear. They were brothers and it wouldn't have made sense. 

I don't think most people actually understand how logic works.  Your logic is rock solid and it closes the discussion.

The only way to reopen the discussion is to bend the rules of reality, something you can't do with logic. It's either true or false. It's uncompromising. 

 

On 11/13/2023 at 12:27 PM, namisgr said:

Native Americans who've rightly hated their portrayals in a number of movies and television shows dating back over 80 years wouldn't agree with that.  And as for Sleeping Beauty and her dependence on Prince Charming to mosey along and awaken her adult life, that's a kind of messaging that was rampant over and over again for many decades, to the detriment of women thinking about or envisioning different professional and personal lives than those common portrayals.

Perhaps some of the more modern portrayals likely seem in your face because you find them objectionable?

I had a really great experience this summer. I got to meet one of the members of Redbone, who was actually telling us about the special endowments native Americans received to create their music. Ironically, this is a song from the Guardians movie!

Then we got to sing the song with him. It as a pretty special night. 

 

On 11/13/2023 at 2:34 PM, paqart said:

Sorry, that would be a way to get banned. Speaking of which, that only works one way. You can write what you like, but I can't. 

Yep. 

On 11/13/2023 at 5:38 PM, RedRaven said:

Just spit-balling here...

Maybe the genre is stale, the formula is tired, the characters do not have mass appeal, and phase 4 and 5 were a narrative mess giving no compelling framework to tell this story within. I think the number of movie-goers that would see/not-see this movie because of some overriding ideology is vanishingly small when compared to the number of people who just wish to be entertained. 

 

 

Can I just say how FRICKING AMAZING IT IS TO SEE YOU POSTING AGAIN!!!!!!! 

I didn't think you were coming back!

On 11/13/2023 at 6:45 PM, jsilverjanet said:

I agree it's mainly about fatigue, but some people want to write the narrative about how a type of content is being forced and this is the general public rejecting it

As someone stated on Facebook today, humans don't get tired of Superheroes. 

Literally EVERY GREAT STORY, arc, narrative, myth, religion, history book and childhood story is wrapped around a mythical or historical figure that is greater than everyone else.

Jesus, Mohammed, Thor, Hulk, Your Parents, Satan, Moloch - WHOEVER. 

The "superhero fatigue" myth is a narrative constructed to discredit factual discussion. 

Further, the "some people want to write the narrative about how a type of content is being forced" is happening. EVEN DISNEY WILL ADMIT IT if the conversation is allowed here, WHICH IT IS NOT. 

So your entire premise is wrong. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by VintageComics

[1950's war comics]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:31 AM, paqart said:

You are having a hard time understanding this. Perhaps I haven't been clear. I'll try again, but this time using completely generic stand-in words so that the conversation doesn't get muddled with irrelevant associations.

1. We have two groups, "Square" and "Circle."
2. 50,000,000 people belong to the Square group.
3. 1,000,000 people are in the Circle group.
4. 100,000 people belong to both groups.
5. Movies made for the Square group are very successful.
6. Movies made for the Circle group are low budget and often unsuccessful.
7. Taking a movie franchise from the Square group and converting it to a Circle movie limits it's Square audience, while increasing its Circle audience.
8. The maximum size of the Circle Audience is less than the Square audience.
9. Therefore, if Square movies are modified to appeal to the Circle audience, their makers should expect significantly lower sales.

In other words, I couldn't care less which groups are represented, if at all, or done in a sympathetic or appropriate way. They can all be represented or none at all, or all wrong. That isn't relevant to a discussion of problems with recent Disney/MCU films. I don't watch football. Never have, don't intend to start. I'm just not interested. The people in the game can do whatever they want and it wouldn't matter to me and I wouldn't matter to them. That wasn't my attitude to Disney until about five years ago. Now, it is my attitude to Disney, and Marvel, DC, and a number of other companies. They have made it clear they don't want my business. I am no hurry to give it to them regardless. As far as I am concerned, those companies are doing everything they can to reduce the size of their own businesses and the industry itself. My guess is that independent publishers will take over before long because they are making comics their readers enjoy. The same for film studios. More and more independents are coming out with fantastic low budget successes that beat the pants off of bigger budget releases, both in box office and profit.

So, it is true I don't like certain messages in entertainment. I find it offensive. You seem to like the very things I don't like. That is not the issue. I don't have to like the same material you like, and it is annoying to see the material I like disappear from the market. If I was part of the niche market, it would be a sound decision to drop customers like me so that the larger audience is happy. However, I'm not in the niche group. Therefore, it is not a sound business decision to write off the previous audience to usher in a new but significantly smaller one. The only way that would make sense is if the goal was to convert people like me into becoming members of the niche group. And that is where it gets offensive, because that feels like coercion. 

brilliant summarization of facts

[JC25427N]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:11 PM, paqart said:

I like Elba as Heimdall also. However, if I was writing the script and was told I had to put a black actor in a lead role, I would have made him Loki, not Heimdall. The reason is that Loki is the adopted brother of Thor and is supposed to be another race.

But weren't you supposed to believe they were biological brothers until the reveal that Odin took Loki from the frost giants as a baby and raised him as his own? It wasn't supposed to be blatantly obvious from the jump that Loki was adopted and of a different race.

Edited November 14, 2023 by JC25427N

[paqart]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:09 PM, Bosco685 said:

How does not having a central theme plan comparable to ancillary distractions?

You are mixing together two vastly different topics. Nobody said, "Captain Marvel's blue in the suit didn't match her comic book source. HATE IT!"

No, but I'm using an analogy. I am comparing something that shall not be named but is offensive to an offensive paint job on a race car. The offensive thing in the film is not a paint job or a color. 

[1950's war comics]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:38 PM, paqart said:

The next bomb is waiting in the wings:

https://pjmedia.com/matt-margolis/2023/11/12/disneys-new-captain-america-movie-on-the-verge-of-crashing-and-burning-n4923841

they will never learn , it would be better if they just took one of the many good story arcs straight out of a Lee and Kirby Cap SA comic and made it into a movie without adding any Hollyweird to it

[Buzzetta]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:59 PM, paqart said:

Do you have a relevant point? Or are you simply illustrating the reason why you don't understand the failure of Marvel/Disney?

Failure by your definition and reasoning meant to once again fit your narrative, brand, and gimmick. 

 

[paperheart]

[1950's war comics]

On 11/13/2023 at 4:08 PM, Bill C said:

at this point in the game, arrogantly bragging that you watch MSM, thinking you're impressive and that you're hearing actual legitimacy. Now there's an obvious echo chamber, and no wonder you're incredulous at anyone who goes outside the groupthink. Can't get into it further on this site without posts getting wiped-- but you just continue to do you, lol.

thank you for putting into words what so many of us think and know

[VintageComics]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:38 PM, RedRaven said:

On 11/13/2023 at 6:24 PM, drotto said:

Yes, the female demagraphic that Disney was aiming for and hoping would show up stayed home.

I heard a commentator once state that comic book movies are basically structured as male power fantasies and as such primarily appeal to men. He then went on to say that a female hero in that sort of story would not attract a female audience as it is still a story designed to appeal to male ideas of fantasy. There was further digression into Rom-Com demographics and such. I will try to find the video.

God, I'm so glad you're here. This is SUCH an important point that hasn't been discussed to my knowledge and it completely eviscerates any discussion over why superhero movies are failing. 

Men and women are biologically and psychologically WIRED DIFFERENTLY. THEY ARE OPPOSITES.

Guys LOVE superheroes, action, conflict, fighting, aggression. We LITERALLY get OFF on it. The other day I saw a bunch of my friends on IG dressed in Middle Ages battle armor and fighting with swords and axes in a pit. For fun. It was their "Sunday-Funday"

Did you guys know that guy's testosterone levels increase just being close to "guy" things?

It's why guys are obsessed with sports, video games, verbal jousting, play fighting, and why we can literally argue or throw fists at each other and afterwards walk away and shake hands respectfully. 

When I shared the video with a lady friend of mine, who is VERY progressive, strong, independent and accomplished (she's the Founder of the charity event I'm working on) she rolled her eyes and couldn't believe it. She wanted nothing to do with it. 

And what Disney is doing, so that they can "appeal to women" is they are trying to force women into a genre that historically, biologically and psychologically THEY HAVE WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH. 

And then they wonder why the movies are failing.

This is literally a clown world we are living in, trying to force square pegs into round holes and convincing everyone they fit. Superhero movies don't appeal to women nearly as much as they appeal to men and they are trying to convince you they do while they are literally going bankrupt trying to do so. It's as though they have NO idea what the target audience is, and they know better than everyone so you'll sit and enjoy it.

Women DON'T LOVE THE GENRE THE WAY MEN DO.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INEQUALITY. THEY DON'T WANT IT.

Why do you all think V for Vendetta was two of my 3 daughter's favorite movies? Because they could relate to Evey. 

They can't relate to Captain Marvel. Of course if you fill them with enough testosterone they might. That's the reality. But naturally? No. 

End. Mic drop. 

Disney can send me their check. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by VintageComics

[paqart]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:16 PM, JC25427N said:

But weren't you supposed to believe they were biological brothers until the reveal that Odin took Loki from the frost giants as a baby and raised him as his own? It wasn't supposed to be blatantly obvious from the jump that Loki was adopted and of a different race.

That detail could have been modified. It wasn't that interesting to me as it was. If it had to stay, then Heimdall's skin tone could have been explained as a dark tan after getting too close to a star during an infant trip through the Rainbow Bridge or something.

[paqart]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:19 PM, Buzzetta said:

Failure by your definition and reasoning meant to once again fit your narrative, brand, and gimmick. 

 

My definition is pretty simple: declining box office.

[1950's war comics]

On 11/13/2023 at 5:27 PM, paqart said:

My definition is pretty simple: declining box office.

the elephant in the room that for some reason is completely invisible to some

[VintageComics]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:19 PM, Buzzetta said:

Failure by your definition and reasoning meant to once again fit your narrative, brand, and gimmick. 

 

Buzz, you have it backwards. You have the narrative, it's not real and it's being pushed from my perspective, and I GENUINELY don't have a preferred narrative except one that's grounding in reality. 

[VintageComics]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:11 PM, paqart said:

I like Elba as Heimdall also. However, if I was writing the script and was told I had to put a black actor in a lead role, I would have made him Loki, not Heimdall. The reason is that Loki is the adopted brother of Thor and is supposed to be another race.

Right. So they missed an ACTUAL OPPORTUNITY to cast a lead role with a different race and instead put him in a lesser role. 

I would actually have less objection to this. It would have been more logical, and yet the studios missed it.

[VintageComics]

I just ended the debate with the help of @RedRaven. 

See how we can get to the heart of a matter if we're just allowed to continue respectful discourse?

Edited November 14, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

Now, let's reverse the tables. 

What does that make Disney, when they are trying to force people who don't want to like something to like it.

Because that is EXACTLY what they're doing. This is not the Disney of 1965. 

What does it make the people who are trying to force others to accept things they don't want? Honest question. 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by VintageComics

[RedRaven]

Why do I feel like someone just poured gasoline on me and torches are half off?

[VintageComics]

On 11/13/2023 at 9:01 PM, RedRaven said:

Why do I feel like someone just poured gasoline on me and torches are half off?

Dude, we just solved a multi billion dollar problem for Disney when they couldn't figure it out. 

Light up a stogie. There's no torches.

We just doused them permanently. Now let's see who admits they were wrong in the face of an immutable act. 

As @TupennyConan Conan once said, pay attention to what people say and do and remember it.