Insurance Claim for One-of-a-Kind / Irreplaceable CGC Comic? 1 1

[troydivision1]

Hi there.
Just wondering if anyone has ever had to submit an insurance claim for a one-of-a-kind / irreplaceable CGC comic.
Specifically, how did you work out FMV?

Knock on wood this isn't something I would ever have to deal with, but my anxiety got the best of me so wanted to find out if there is a benchmark for a situation like this.

Thank you in advance.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Troy Division

[thunsicker]

It might behoove you to call the insurance company and see how they handle FMV for comics which don't have many comps.

 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/6/2022 at 6:44 PM, Troy Division said:

Hi there.
Just wondering if anyone has ever had to submit an insurance claim for a one-of-a-kind / irreplaceable CGC comic.
 

Is there really such a thing?  What would it be?  

To get insurance, you generally have to get an estimate of the comic's replacement cost or market value.  So what is this "one of a kind / irreplaceable CGC comic."

[troydivision1]

On 4/6/2022 at 10:16 PM, thunsicker said:

It might behoove you to call the insurance company and see how they handle FMV for comics which don't have many comps.

Thank you for the idea.
Will do.
My hope was that someone who had 'gone through the process' already might be able to provide feedback to me / the boards about their experience.
Whether they had pitfalls / needed special guidance.
Tried googling 'insurance rare items', but the only results were about making sure to have insurance on those type of items.

On 4/7/2022 at 1:05 AM, sfcityduck said:

Is there really such a thing?  What would it be?  

To get insurance, you generally have to get an estimate of the comic's replacement cost or market value.  So what is this "one of a kind / irreplaceable CGC comic."

Thank you for asking.
What peaked my interest was a comment in the signature series thread about someone requesting FMV information for their book.
As a personal exercise I initially started breaking down the cost of book + signatures, but then realized what if it is the only one in existence.

Personally, I have a handful of books that range from they 'can never be replicated' to 'you have better odds winning the lottery'.
As such, even determining FMV for Collect Insure is a trying process.
I try to err on the side of reasonable for my collection's coverage, BUT we have all witnessed reason go out the window when it comes to collectors and rare / one-of-a-kind items.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I imagine that an item without a comparable would have to be professionally appraised.

[wombat]

Interesting question and I don't have any first hand experience with it. But I guess the one thing that comes to mind is whatever method is used the insurance company needs to be on board. You can come up with what you think is a great way to determine value, but that probably doesn't mean very much if the insurance company is going to disagree with you. 

[marvelmaniac]

Adding to the question, what would CIS do in a hypothetical case such as this since you name the amount of coverage you want/need for an item/collection, does CIS require professional appraisals for high $$$ books or do they pay you the amount of coverage you have?

[sfcityduck]

On 4/7/2022 at 5:37 AM, Troy Division said:

Personally, I have a handful of books that range from they 'can never be replicated' to 'you have better odds winning the lottery'.
As such, even determining FMV for Collect Insure is a trying process.
I try to err on the side of reasonable for my collection's coverage, BUT we have all witnessed reason go out the window when it comes to collectors and rare / one-of-a-kind items.

I insure my fine art, including original paintings, through my homeowners policy.  All that is required to get a one of a kind painting insured is an expert appraisal.  The experts make the appraisal based on comparable sales by the same artist.  The same methodology of referencing comparable works can be used for comics, even supposedly "one-of-a-kind" items.

It is worth noting that in the comic world rarity does not equate to value.  Many of the most valuable books in the hobby are not at all rare.  In contrast, there are books that are so rare no market has ever really developed for them and there price remains surprisingly low (if they can be found).  Hence the reason I asked you what books you are referencing.  An insurer is not going to insure even a desirable super rare comic (like a Supergear or a Nightingale) for what the owner might think the comic is worth.  Instead, they will require an appraisal at the time the insurance is obtained (which likely will be low) or at the time of paying the claim (which also likely would be low). And that appraisal will based on the available facts not speculative opinions (which is why it will be low).  

There should be no problem appraising a signed comic or a "rare in grade" comic.  So I'm not sure what impediment you face in with getting your comics appropriately appraised. 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 4/7/2022 at 9:06 AM, marvelmaniac said:

Adding to the question, what would CIS do in a hypothetical case such as this since you name the amount of coverage you want/need for an item/collection, does CIS require professional appraisals for high $$$ books or do they pay you the amount of coverage you have?

Don't know about CIS.  Typically, an insurer will obtain its own valuation information, not rely on what you represent unless it is the certified appraisal submitted to obtain the insurance (which is why you need to update appraisals and limits if values change significantly). I would advise that you carefully document the contents of your collection, taking pics of certified and uncertified high value books for which evidence of condition might be required to substantiate their value, and that information be stored at a different location than where the collection is located (e.g., if your collection is in your house, have a copy of the docs in your bank box and vice versa or a family members house, etc.).

Edited April 7, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Dr. Love]

On 4/7/2022 at 5:37 AM, Troy Division said:

As a personal exercise I initially started breaking down the cost of book + signatures, but then realized what if it is the only one in existence.

Personally, I have a handful of books that range from they 'can never be replicated' to 'you have better odds winning the lottery'.
As such, even determining FMV for Collect Insure is a trying process.

If there are no comps, and there are always some sort of applicable comps for a book, then there's your cost basis for the book.  

Come up with some compelling premium for a slabbed sig based on general comps.

Never can be replicated, one of a kind - all meaningless noise to an insurer.  Unless you get a specific rider based on an appraisal, and even that may not be honored at claim time.  

[troydivision1]

On 4/7/2022 at 11:00 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I imagine that an item without a comparable would have to be professionally appraised.

On 4/7/2022 at 11:22 AM, wombat said:

Interesting question and I don't have any first hand experience with it. But I guess the one thing that comes to mind is whatever method is used the insurance company needs to be on board. You can come up with what you think is a great way to determine value, but that probably doesn't mean very much if the insurance company is going to disagree with you. 

On 4/7/2022 at 12:06 PM, marvelmaniac said:

Adding to the question, what would CIS do in a hypothetical case such as this since you name the amount of coverage you want/need for an item/collection, does CIS require professional appraisals for high $$$ books or do they pay you the amount of coverage you have?

This is what kind of what was relayed to me by Collect Insure.
They explained to review completed eBay auctions to determine FMV for my items and if not able to due to scarcity then reach out to Metropolis Comics for guidance.
I have contacted Metropolis Comics with my inquiry and am waiting for a response.

Collect Insure also referred me to their "Less Paperwork and Red Tape" commitment once I am able to determine the FMV of the items.
Unlike homeowners insurance, we do not require a schedule or appraisal for most items; however, you are responsible for maintaining your own inventory for insurance purposes (in the event of loss).
The only exceptions are individual items or sets valued over $25,000 apiece, which would have to be scheduled.
 

On 4/7/2022 at 4:03 PM, sfcityduck said:

I insure my fine art, including original paintings, through my homeowners policy.  All that is required to get a one of a kind painting insured is an expert appraisal.  The experts make the appraisal based on comparable sales by the same artist.  The same methodology of referencing comparable works can be used for comics, even supposedly "one-of-a-kind" items.

It is worth noting that in the comic world rarity does not equate to value.  Many of the most valuable books in the hobby are not at all rare.  In contrast, there are books that are so rare no market has ever really developed for them and there price remains surprisingly low (if they can be found).  Hence the reason I asked you what books you are referencing.  An insurer is not going to insure even a desirable super rare comic (like a Supergear or a Nightingale) for what the owner might think the comic is worth.  Instead, they will require an appraisal at the time the insurance is obtained (which likely will be low) or at the time of paying the claim (which also likely would be low). And that appraisal will based on the available facts not speculative opinions (which is why it will be low).  

There should be no problem appraising a signed comic or a "rare in grade" comic.  So I'm not sure what impediment you face in with getting your comics appropriately appraised.

On 4/7/2022 at 4:06 PM, sfcityduck said:

Don't know about CIS.  Typically, an insurer will obtain its own valuation information, not rely on what you represent unless it is the certified appraisal submitted to obtain the insurance (which is why you need to update appraisals and limits if values change significantly). I would advise that you carefully document the contents of your collection, taking pics of certified and uncertified high value books for which evidence of condition might be required to substantiate their value, and that information be stored at a different location than where the collection is located (e.g., if your collection is in your house, have a copy of the docs in your bank box and vice versa or a family members house, etc.).

Thank you very much for sharing.
I agree that rarity does not equate value.

Collect Insure has asked me to reach out to Metropolis Comics to assess the items that do not have comps via completed eBay sales.

As far documenting my collection:
Books are retrieved from the safe deposit box and photographed once a year.
FMV is recorded in an excel spreadsheet once a month.
Everything is backed up on dropbox and on two separate flash drives (one in the house and one in the safe deposit box).

On 4/7/2022 at 4:45 PM, Dr. Love said:

If there are no comps, and there are always some sort of applicable comps for a book, then there's your cost basis for the book.  

Come up with some compelling premium for a slabbed sig based on general comps.

Never can be replicated, one of a kind - all meaningless noise to an insurer.  Unless you get a specific rider based on an appraisal, and even that may not be honored at claim time.  

This is basically what Collect Insure told me after some correspondence.
They directed me to Metropolis to get an appraisal due to no comps via completed eBay sales.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Troy Division

[troydivision1]

I haven't received any messages from anyone on these boards or comments in this thread with a direct connection to the question at hand.
Someone (outside these boards) did relay a method they utilize.
I don't condone it.

"What I do is 'sell' my items to a friend via eBay Best Offer. Thus I set the FMV I think its worth."

Edited April 7, 2022 by Troy Division

[wombat]

On 4/7/2022 at 7:23 PM, Troy Division said:

I haven't received any messages from anyone on these boards or comments in this thread with a direct connection to the question at hand.
Someone (outside these boards) did relay a method they utilize.
I don't condone it.

"What I do is 'sell' my items to a friend via eBay Best Offer. Thus I set the FMV I think its worth."

Doing this on an expensive book seems like a good way to get caught for insurance fraud. Seems like an amateur sleuth could figure that one out. 

[troydivision1]

On 4/7/2022 at 7:54 PM, Mosh It Up said:

Maybe you should ask someone here, there's lots of "one of a kind" books posted.

 

Will do whilst I wait for Metropolis to get back to me.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/7/2022 at 4:23 PM, Troy Division said:

I haven't received any messages from anyone on these boards or comments in this thread with a direct connection to the question at hand.
Someone (outside these boards) did relay a method they utilize.
I don't condone it.

"What I do is 'sell' my items to a friend via eBay Best Offer. Thus I set the FMV I think its worth."

Boy are they going to have a surprise next January!

[sfcityduck]

On 4/7/2022 at 4:44 PM, wombat said:

Doing this on an expensive book seems like a good way to get caught for insurance fraud. Seems like an amateur sleuth could figure that one out. 

Yep. More importantly, the attorneys (and their investigators) hired by the insurer will figure it out.

[marvelmaniac]

On 4/7/2022 at 7:14 PM, Troy Division said:

This is what kind of what was relayed to me by Collect Insure.
They explained to review completed eBay auctions to determine FMV for my items and if not able to due to scarcity then reach out to Metropolis Comics for guidance.
I have contacted Metropolis Comics with my inquiry and am waiting for a response.

Collect Insure also referred me to their "Less Paperwork and Red Tape" commitment once I am able to determine the FMV of the items.
Unlike homeowners insurance, we do not require a schedule or appraisal for most items; however, you are responsible for maintaining your own inventory for insurance purposes (in the event of loss).
The only exceptions are individual items or sets valued over $25,000 apiece, which would have to be scheduled.
 

Thank you very much for sharing.
I agree that rarity does not equate value.

Collect Insure has asked me to reach out to Metropolis Comics to assess the items that do not have comps via completed eBay sales.

As far documenting my collection:
Books are retrieved from the safe deposit box and photographed once a year.
FMV is recorded in an excel spreadsheet once a month.
Everything is backed up on dropbox and on two separate flash drives (one in the house and one in the safe deposit box).

This is basically what Collect Insure told me after some correspondence.
They directed me to Metropolis to get an appraisal due to no comps via completed eBay sales.

Thank You for the info. I have had my collection insured with CIS for 15 years, the reason I brought this up was because I knew that an appraisal was not needed with CIS so how would they go about a one of a kind issue, you answered the question, Thanks Again.

I understand scarcity does not always = high value, it is supply and demand, if nobody wants the scarce item it is basically worthless as far as $$$, if there were 3 million copies of a certain book printed and 6 million people wanted that book, the value increases, supply and demand.

[troydivision1]

On 4/8/2022 at 10:34 AM, marvelmaniac said:

Thank You for the info. I have had my collection insured with CIS for 15 years, the reason I brought this up was because I knew that an appraisal was not needed with CIS so how would they go about a one of a kind issue, you answered the question, Thanks Again.

I understand scarcity does not always = high value, it is supply and demand, if nobody wants the scarce item it is basically worthless as far as $$$, if there were 3 million copies of a certain book printed and 6 million people wanted that book, the value increases, supply and demand.

Glad I could provide an assist.
Their answer / solution leaves a little to be desired as the FMV solutions are via legacy media.
I brought this up in the Moderns Heating Up thread, but if new media (Facebook / Whatnot / etc) results are NOT being tracked (GPAnalysis being the one always referred to) then everyone may be missing key data points.

This rabbit hole the past few days led me to money laundering / inflated appraisals in the fine art world...

A friend suggested I try the following to determine the FMV of items -
List items on eBay with BIN prices triple of what I would be happy receiving with 'Best Offer' turned on until 'sold'.
The highest best offer is the FMV.

I may give this a chance.