Census explodes for "Rare Ghost" Book - Triples 9.8 in a single week - Could this be a Census error 3 3

[Poekaymon]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:07 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I just don't see the allure in buying a comic book simply because it's "rare".

Agree completely.  

On 4/24/2022 at 8:07 AM, Sam T said:

Ya there's a difference between scarcity and false-scarcity.

Variants are kinda, by definition, books no one will really want because down the line a book becoming popular and valuable usually comes from familiarity.

Agree completely.  This is why I don't collect modern variants or GA books.  Most GA collectors aren't being reminded of something they grew up with and that has become "organically" scarce.  (Or if they are, they won't be around much longer, sorry to say.)

On 4/20/2022 at 12:10 PM, sfcityduck said:

I like rare GA comics that are historically important.  But, I don't see the point of manufactured collectibles.

Now, see, this is my issue with GA collectors on this forum who nearly, to a man, deride moderns.  Let's think about this.  While there are no doubt some historically important GA books, artist firsts, first appearances, certain war books, famous covers, groundbreaking covers, etc.  There are plenty that are simply old/rare.  And unless GA collectors are outperforming life expectancies by a wide margin, they aren't collecting for nostalgia.  So you really can't tell me that random bondage cover 41 is important and significant over random bondage covers 38, 39, and 40, for example.  If you want to say that all of the GA covers are important and significant like they are all Rembrandts or something, then you can make the same argument about, say, all of J. Scott Campbell's 1:1000 covers.  They both have artistic merit--the difference is just personal bias, as with most art.  It's also pretty tough to argue that people are being reminded of great stories in those GA books in the way people might collect, say, Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen.  I think most GA collectors readily admit that they don't even read the books.  That's another commonality between GAs and modern variants--they are entirely cover driven.  

I agree as Sam said, familiarity is a big part of it.  At least for me--I collect silver and copper because it has nostalgia value for me and I don't care if it all goes to $0.  Now unless the GA collectors are even older than I think, they aren't buying them because of nostalgia--they just think those books are cool and valuable, and they are rare.  So I don't collect GAs for exactly the same reason I don't collect modern variants--they may be cool, and they may be rare, but they have no meaning to me.  So what reason do I have to buy them other than the hope that new buyers, after all the current GA collectors have shuffled off this mortal coil, will continue to share that view?  Seems exactly the same as OP's Killmonger #2 1:25--maybe even worse since some 10 year old right now might be really into Killmonger due to movies.

To be clear, I have nothing against GA.  I just find it a bit hypocritical of GA collectors to laud GA books (often to the exclusion of all else) while at the same time deriding modern variants.  You guys are all peas in a pod as far as I'm concerned.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Poekaymon

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:34 AM, Poekaymon said:

Agree completely.  This is why I don't collect GA books.  Most GA collectors aren't being reminded of something they grew up with and that has become "organically" scarce.  (Or if they are, they won't be around much longer, sorry to say.)

Collecting GA sucks. Obviously, I didn't grow up with it, so the scarcity based on not knowing there would be demand for it, book burning, etc keeping prices high makes it a low-fruit part of the hobby. I simply love some of the Pre-Code stuff, mostly from an artistic standpoint.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/24/2022 at 7:34 AM, Poekaymon said:

.

Now, see, this is my issue with GA collectors on this forum who nearly, to a man, deride moderns.  Let's think about this.  While there are no doubt some historically important GA books, artist firsts, first appearances, certain war books, famous covers, groundbreaking covers, etc.  There are plenty that are simply old/rare.  And unless GA collectors are outperforming life expectancies by a wide margin, they aren't collecting for nostalgia.  So you really can't tell me that random bondage cover 41 is important and significant over random bondage covers 38, 39, and 40, for example.  If you want to say that all of the GA covers are important and significant like they are all Rembrandts or something, then you can make the same argument about, say, all of J. Scott Campbell's 1:1000 covers.  They both have artistic merit--the difference is just personal bias, as with most art.  It's also pretty tough to argue that people are being reminded of great stories in those GA books in the way people might collect, say, Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen.  I think most GA collectors readily admit that they don't even read the books.  That's another commonality between GAs and modern variants--they are entirely cover driven.  

I agree as Sam said, familiarity is a big part of it.  At least for me--I collect silver and copper because it has nostalgia value for me and I don't care if it all goes to $0.  Now unless the GA collectors are even older than I think, they aren't buying them because of nostalgia--they just think those books are cool and valuable, and they are rare.  So I don't collect GAs for exactly the same reason I don't collect modern variants--they may be cool, and they may be rare, but they have no meaning to me.  So what reason do I have to buy them other than the hope that new buyers, after all the current GA collectors have shuffled off this mortal coil, will continue to share that view?  Seems exactly the same as OP's Killmonger #2 1:25--maybe even worse since some 10 year old right now might be really into Killmonger due to movies.

To be clear, I have nothing against GA.  I just find it a bit hypocritical of GA collectors to laud GA books (often to the exclusion of all else) while at the same time deriding modern variants.  You guys are all peas in a pod as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with with some of your main points - basically the criticism of folks who take the position that what I collect is awesome and what you collect is junk.  But your criticism is misdirected to me, misses my point, and incorrectly analyzes a main issue.

First, I began collecting in the late 70s.  Byrne X-Men were immediately king to me, also Rogers & Austin Batman, Miller Daredevil, Golden, Sinkz, Perez, were early favorites.  Later Cerebus, Moore, Dark Horse, etc.  But I do have nostalgia for some GA books despite my "young" age because my father gave me his collection of later 40s - early 50s comics and enjoyed immensely.  And, maybe more so because before that two of my favorite library books as a kid were Batman from the 30s to the 70s and Superman from the 30s to the 70s.  The point being, you can have a lot of comic nostalgia and it does not need to be for comics from a period in which you actually lived.

Second, nostalgia is not what drives my GA comic collecting.  What drives my GA comic collecting is history and the joy of the hunt.  Which is why I said "I like rare GA comics that are historically important.  But, I don't see the point of manufactured collectibles."  You see, there are not really that many truly "rare" GA comics (as opposed to the old saw "rare in grade").  Most are readily available if you have the money to pay for them.  But there are some that are incredibly rare and historically important that can provide you with one of the best reasons to collect: The thrill of the hunt.  Examples?:

My personal favorite was my hunt for the book Frederick Wertham called the "only good comic book ever published."  Collectors on this board had been searching decades for a copy of it.  I found a copy after a two year search.  The comic is historically important because of the role it played in the comic censorship battles that raged in the late 40s to mid-50s.  When issued, there were newspaper articles about it nationally.  It is mentioned extensively in Wertham's Seduction of the Innocent.  If you want to complete a collection of every comic mentioned in SOTI you have to have a copy.  Yet, at the time I started my hunt there was only one known copy in private hands.  I found the second.  A third, incredibly beat up copy, just appeared with a few pages of the original art.  The hunt was a blast and selling that comic to the guy who deserved it more than any other so he could complete a SOTI collection was personally satisfying.  That's a great reason to collect books like that.  Read about it here and note what I titled that thread long ago:

My second favorite hunt was for what I view as the first true graphic novel as Will Eisner used that term many decades later: A classic comic page format graphic story telling with word balloons of the experience of immigrants coming to America.  I searched 15 years for that one.  It was my personal grail.  You can read that story here (ignore that graphic in the box below - that's not the book):

Another rare book that I and others have searched for and located after long searches is the last comic that Ian needed for his famous quest to compile a complete collection of all newsstand DC comics.  You can read about that here:

So that's me and one of my collecting motivations.  Right now, I'm focusing on comics bearing on the Atomic Bomb and Cold War scare that resulted. Some of those books are really rare.

Third, but I agree that no GA collectors should be putting down what you collect because its not "as good" as the GGA covers or PCH covers or Cole/Baker/Schomburg covers or Frazetta/Krigstein/Kurtzman stories or Joker appearances etc. etc. etc. that they collect.  Again, what  I collect is cool to me, what you collect is cool to you, and its ok if we don't agree on what's cool - although most comic collectors do have very broad areas of agreement on coolness.

Fourth,  my specific statement "I don't see the point of manufactured collectibles" is not a criticism of people who buy them.  I know they are doing so because of that familiar feeling of OCD completism or desire for a rare commodity that might increase in value.  It is a criticism of the people who create them in order to exploit those buyers.  In my view they are cynical creations intended to exploit which have an impact of preventing many collectors from easily obtaining or meeting their collecting goal of having all issues in a particular run of comics.  I view them as somewhat evil.  And I have no doubt that the publishers of such items hold some back and profit on them later.  As someone who was an X-Men completest until a proliferation of cynical mini-series, maxi-series, cross-overs, spin-offs, variant covers, etc. made the financial burden of maintaining that collection financially burdensome to the point that the joy was robbed, I hate those cynical publisher moves.  To me, its had a very negative impact on comic collecting.  But that's just my opinion.

And that's the point you missed.  Probably I was too obtuse.

Edited April 24, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Poekaymon]

On 4/24/2022 at 11:43 AM, sfcityduck said:

I agree with with some of your main points - basically the criticism of folks who take the position that what I collect is awesome and what you collect is junk.  But your criticism is misdirected to me, misses my point, and incorrectly analyzes a main issue.

Third, but I agree that no GA collectors should be putting down what you collect because its not "as good" as the GGA covers or PCH covers or Cole/Baker/Schomburg covers or Frazetta/Krigstein/Kurtzman stories or Joker appearances etc. etc. etc. that they collect.  Again, what  I collect is cool to me, what you collect is cool to you, and its ok if we don't agree on what's cool - although most comic collectors do have very broad areas of agreement on coolness.

Although I quoted you, it was mostly a starting point, and more directed at, other statements I've seen on here the last few years.  With your expansion, I don't think we're that far off.  

As for the thing I originally quoted you for, "I don't see the point of manufactured collectibles," well, I don't collect them, but I do see the point.  Moderns are numerous and largely in good condition.  As we have said many times on this page, people like to chase stuff that is "rare."  For some books that means there just aren't many left.  For others that means there are plenty left, but not that many in good condition.  But neither of those is true for most moderns.  So what can modern collectors do?  Limited printings, high ratio variants, etc.  So say someone really likes 2022 Killmonger or Miles Morales or whatever.  They don't want to get GA books but they still want something that not many people have.  There's really no "organic" way to do it that I know of other than manufacturing it.  Of course, that has issues, which I myself spelled out on the prior page.  I just don't see an alternative.  If people want to collect that stuff, then go for it.  If not, then don't.  My only real issue is with the people who put it down.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/24/2022 at 9:56 AM, Poekaymon said:

Although I quoted you, it was mostly a starting point, and more directed at, other statements I've seen on here the last few years.  With your expansion, I don't think we're that far off.  

As for the thing I originally quoted you for, "I don't see the point of manufactured collectibles," well, I don't collect them, but I do see the point.  Moderns are numerous and largely in good condition.  As we have said many times on this page, people like to chase stuff that is "rare."  For some books that means there just aren't many left.  For others that means there are plenty left, but not that many in good condition.  But neither of those is true for most moderns.  So what can modern collectors do?  Limited printings, high ratio variants, etc.  So say someone really likes 2022 Killmonger or Miles Morales or whatever.  They don't want to get GA books but they still want something that not many people have.  There's really no "organic" way to do it that I know of other than manufacturing it.  Of course, that has issues, which I myself spelled out on the prior page.  I just don't see an alternative.  If people want to collect that stuff, then go for it.  If not, then don't.  My only real issue is with the people who put it down.

Not a single SA, CA, or BA  X-Men appearance falls into the rare category.  But, I loved collecting them.  And many folks still do.  Because of the story and the characters and the artists who worked on those books.  These days you can read the stories in Archives, Omni's, and online so you don't even need to chase the down the issues.  But if you do want the issues, they are readily available and there's great joy in completing a run for a lot of collectors despite the utter lack of rarity.  

And if you want something that's rare, there's always things out there even for more recent comics which are "organically" rare: Low print run independent publisher offerings, newsstand variants, rare subsequent printings, giveaways, etc.  

If you want something related to a mass produced comic that's rare, one of a kind even, there's always original art.  

And if you want something that's one of a kind and specific to you, you can go the Signature Series route.  

You can do all of that without messing with the lives of those who want "complete" runs, which used to be a major driving force for buyer support of comics series.  I think comic publishers were better off back in the days when collectors focused on series completion.  It led to loyal buyers and consistent sales on series (barring a major quality downturn).  

I understand you think that its ok for collectors to seek out the variants which are manufactured collectibles (intentionally printed in low runs to make them rare and collectible), and I agree that if they exist its ok for a collector to want one if its meets a collecting goal. 

But my firm opinion is that they should not exist.  I'm with Spock on this one:  The needs of the many should outweigh the needs of the few.  Publishers are evil sometimes and the whole retailer variant thing was an evil money grubbing idea.  My two cents.  A criticism of publishers not collectors.  I blame the start of it on the limited edition Dark Knight hardcover back in the 80s.  In my perfect world, those variants would not exist.  

 

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Sam T]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:34 AM, Poekaymon said:

Agree completely.  

Agree completely.  This is why I don't collect modern variants or GA books.  Most GA collectors aren't being reminded of something they grew up with and that has become "organically" scarce.  (Or if they are, they won't be around much longer, sorry to say.)

 

I love this. And you're 100% right. I have never understood the jump from Silver to Gold. I was born in the 80's, grew up in the 90's with the X-Men animated series. Spider-Man and X-Men were the first comic characters I connected with and I immediately started buying whatever was on the shelf. But buying curious and nerdy I wanted to get the WHOLE story and I knew that started in the Silver Age.

Every Marvel trading card I got would have the "first appearance" written on the back. Yes, at the time I was buying Silver Surfer Vol. 3 #75 with shiny garbage on the cover but I was still being exposed to the idea that the story starts in FF #48 and that I would eventually want that piece of the story. But Marvel characters really have no meaningful connection to the golden age. Captain America and everything else marvel did in the golden age was just cynical war propaganda. They didn't build stories and those books aren't meaningful to the next generation of writers. At least on the marvel side.

 

This actually is different w/  DC because the Silver Age characters did have more of a connection to the golden age characters. I understand folks getting into batman/superman and going back to the GA books but with marvel that line really ends at 1961. Marvel Golden Age is just not connected in any meaningful way to Marvel Silver Age and a fan won't organically make that leap without money to be made.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/25/2022 at 7:44 AM, Sam T said:

I love this. And you're 100% right. I have never understood the jump from Silver to Gold. I was born in the 80's, grew up in the 90's with the X-Men animated series. Spider-Man and X-Men were the first comic characters I connected with and I immediately started buying whatever was on the shelf. But buying curious and nerdy I wanted to get the WHOLE story and I knew that started in the Silver Age.

Every Marvel trading card I got would have the "first appearance" written on the back. Yes, at the time I was buying Silver Surfer Vol. 3 #75 with shiny garbage on the cover but I was still being exposed to the idea that the story starts in FF #48 and that I would eventually want that piece of the story. But Marvel characters really have no meaningful connection to the golden age. Captain America and everything else marvel did in the golden age was just cynical war propaganda. They didn't build stories and those books aren't meaningful to the next generation of writers. At least on the marvel side.

This actually is different w/  DC because the Silver Age characters did have more of a connection to the golden age characters. I understand folks getting into batman/superman and going back to the GA books but with marvel that line really ends at 1961. Marvel Golden Age is just not connected in any meaningful way to Marvel Silver Age and a fan won't organically make that leap without money to be made.

*...their characters originated in the Golden Age.

The idea that one cannot enjoy comics from ages predating their birth is nonsense, really. Just because Madeupname Numbertwo doesn't exist in today's comic books does not mean that one cannot organically enjoy Independent Zombies from 1951.

I simply don't like people "investing" in comic books. I want organic collecting and growth.

[thunsicker]

On 4/25/2022 at 6:44 AM, Sam T said:

They didn't build stories and those books aren't meaningful to the next generation of writers. At least on the marvel side.

I agree wholeheartedly.  The writing of the Golden Age Marvel writers like Stan Lee had absolutely no influence over the Silver Age Marvel writers like Stan Lee.

[Poekaymon]

On 4/25/2022 at 9:13 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The idea that one cannot enjoy comics from ages predating their birth is nonsense, really. Just because Madeupname Numbertwo doesn't exist in today's comic books does not mean that one cannot organically enjoy Independent Zombies from 1951.

From what I've seen, GA collectors care about the inside of a book about as much as modern variant 9.8 slab collectors do.  (ie, not at all)   

[thunsicker]

On 4/25/2022 at 11:13 AM, Poekaymon said:

From what I've seen, GA collectors care about the inside of a book about as much as modern variant 9.8 slab collectors do.  (ie, not at all)   

I'd go even further and say that until The Dark Knight and The Watchmen almost all comics were juvenile and aimed at kids.  (Underground comics excepted)

[Grendel72]

Maybe those 2 comic books brought mainstream attention but comics like love and rockets and Alan Moore's run on Swamp Thing predates them. And the bulk of  comics remained juvenile and aimed at kids even after DKR and Watchmen..Every once in a while you get a Sandman or Astrocity but you need not look too far away for something to fill the need for a testosterone maxed teen or adult for that matter. 

[thunsicker]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:42 PM, Heavyheavyheavy said:

E.C. Comics.

Have you read any of them recently?  They were miles ahead of the comics of their times.  But compared to Gaiman's  Sandman and Moore's Swamp Thing they were pretty juvenile.

[Lazyboy]

On 4/25/2022 at 1:50 PM, thunsicker said:

Have you read any of them recently?  They were miles ahead of the comics of their times.  But compared to Gaiman's  Sandman and Moore's Swamp Thing they were pretty juvenile.

The biggest difference between EC's stories and the other stories you reference is the length, not the quality. But yeah, it is hard to compare serialized epics to anthologies.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/25/2022 at 12:13 PM, Poekaymon said:

From what I've seen, GA collectors care about the inside of a book about as much as modern variant 9.8 slab collectors do.  (ie, not at all)   

Some, sure. I have no way to gauge a decent percentage, though.

[thunsicker]

On 4/25/2022 at 4:24 PM, Lazyboy said:

The biggest difference between EC's stories and the other stories you reference is the length, not the quality. But yeah, it is hard to compare serialized epics to anthologies.

Actually I would say the main difference is consistency.  The best of EC (Master Race, Judgement Day, A Baby, etc.) is really pretty good.  But for every excellent story like these there were a dozen simple stories about conmen getting their comeuppance.  

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 4/25/2022 at 2:27 PM, thunsicker said:

I'd go even further and say that until The Dark Knight and The Watchmen almost all comics were juvenile and aimed at kids.  (Underground comics excepted)

It's tough to convey my thoughts on this, but I agree to a large degree. The Silver Age was definitely a great time to be a child who enjoyed comic books.

[steveinthecity]

On 4/25/2022 at 2:42 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

It's tough to convey my thoughts on this, but I agree to a large degree. The Silver Age was definitely a great time to be a child who enjoyed comic books.

Weren’t all the ages great when one was a child?

[Qalyar]

On 4/24/2022 at 12:23 PM, sfcityduck said:

Not a single SA, CA, or BA  X-Men appearance falls into the rare category. 

Obviously, I needed something to burn time on today. This sentence stuck with me. Obviously, none of the core X-Men books are actually rare. Some of them are valuable. A few of them are very valuable. But that doesn't make them rare. But is there any book featuring the X-Men, or at least featuring an X-Man, that is? I went ahead and included Modern stuff here. Obviously, though, variants, weird printings, and the like don't count; there's plenty of those that are quite scarce (by design) and equally expensive on the secondary market. So that rules out the Pressman books, the Wolverine v3 #1 Retailer Incentive (in the Deadpool suit), and so forth.

Turns out, there are at least a few books that aren't "rare" in the Overstreet sense, but might require a bit of hunting to acquire. Most of these aren't expensive, because demand is low, but that doesn't make them easy to find.

• Wolverine 102.5 (1996) was a mail-away promotion via partnership with Fleer, the trading card company. This one's special because it's apparently legitimate considered in-continuity, which a lot of these weird one-off things aren't. These have attracted enough attention lately that there are quite a few on the market, although prices are creeping upward.
• X-Men: Life Lessons (2007). This was produced as a partnership between Marvel and the Starbright Foundation charity, featuring the story of a mutant who is badly burned in the Danger Room and faces difficulties returning to his normal life as a result of his scarred face. Most copies were distributed to health care settings to be given out to children in burn wards. As of my post, there's one copy on ebay.
• Ultimate Spider-Man / Ultimate X-Men (2009). This was commissioned by Marvel from New York ad mega-agency BBDO and their client Campbell's Soup. It features a diversity and inclusion story, entitled "Heroes Welcome", by Brian Michael Bendis. Right now, there's one copy on ebay, and it's a sad beater.

I have this nagging feeling that there's something older that belongs on this list that I know about but am stridently failing to remember.

EDIT: If you're into weird promotionals and rare variants, that Life Lessons book exists in both English and Spanish versions. The latter wasn't for foreign distribution, but to be given out to burned kids whose primary language was Spanish. It is markedly rarer than the English one.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Qalyar

[Qalyar]

On 4/25/2022 at 6:29 PM, Heavyheavyheavy said:

?

Definitely an X-Men-based promotional, but there's nothing rare about that thing. The Dallas Times Herald distributed about eleventy jillion of those.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/25/2022 at 4:29 PM, Heavyheavyheavy said:

?

I've got one of those!   Is it rare or valuable?