This one isn't in reality... 1 1

[D2]

On 6/18/2022 at 10:17 AM, Jesse-Lee said:

Yeah, I wonder about this sometimes too - I know it's a small sample size, but my kid (14) and his friends have zero interest in comics, despite a couple of us dads having collections. My kid would rather spend money on digital video game items than physical items. It makes me wonder how much people will care about buying comics in 20-30 years. I think the big books will stand the test of time, but a lot of the flavor-of-the-month variants probably won't. That's why I typically only buy variant covers I really like and try to get them on the cheap - if I can't sell them, at least I like looking at them.

Same. Our kid who is 12 couldn’t care less about comic books. Although he does like to draw stories, which is interesting… it plays more on his creativity. Reading comics though, or buying comics, and collecting comics, forget it. No interest.

All Fortnite, all the time. Games games, and more video games. That’s funny that we have the same experience 

[D2]

On 6/18/2022 at 9:46 AM, darkstar said:

You're genuinely asking why a comic can sell for thousands of dollars just based on the cover art? It is no different than an art print. Is there a market for those? 

No lol! There’s not!

What $15,000 art prints are you buying?

Or $10,000… or $2,000! 
 

You can buy art prints, sure, just as easily as you can buy a stamp and a coin. You can go buy a cow if you’d like. 
 

We’ve talked about this before. You are comparing comic books and their art to Fine Art. And they are not. Comic books and their art are Applied Arts. Although seemingly the same… are entirely different. 

[fastballspecial]

On 6/17/2022 at 6:17 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

On 6/17/2022 at 1:21 PM, D2 said:

I don’t understand why books that are not valued reads are valuable. I don’t understand how a book based solely on its cover, and its exclusivity in its rarity, is valuable.

To play devil's advocate, why is a stamp valuable? Or an old coin, or a baseball card, or basically anything people collect? It really all comes down to rarity and exclusivity in some form or another, doesn't it?

In our hobby it does to a very select buying community who desires rarity. The buying pool for this book is pretty limited. 
Doesn't mean it won't sell for pretty penny, but in my experience when you get a book this valuable you better have a customer
base to support it. I have had valuable and rare 35 cent variants, but I had a hard time selling them so eventually I got a really 
nice trade on the book instead.

 

[valiantman]

On 6/17/2022 at 8:55 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

I actually agree with you in much of this - I think this Moon Knight is probably overvalued (the original example that the OP posted is obviously WAY overvalued) - and I think there are a lot of modern variants that will never stand the test of time. But then we see examples like Batman 423, Hulk 340, etc. Not modern variant books, but also not being bought for the contents of the book; they're being bought for cover alone. You could even make that argument for classics like Batman 227. My only point was that there are exceptions to every rule, and in those cases, it's the rarity and exclusivity (plus demand) that drives those prices.

You could argue that those books that I used as examples aren't necessarily rare or exclusive, but compared to the overall demand for them, they are rare and exclusive enough that the number of collectors who want them outstrips the number of copies available, thereby drive up the price.

This is the key variable, but it is often hard to quantify.  OVERALL DEMAND = something approximated by PRICE times QUANTITY

If 2,000 slabs for some (relatively common) issue are worth an average of $500 each, that's $1,000,000 overall demand for the issue, but no one really gets excited by $500 slabs.

If some rare modern variant averages $5,000 and there are 50 of them, that's $250,000 overall demand.

People get all excited about the $5,000 slabs and we have hundreds of pages of discussion about "rare modern variant rankings" and new sales records, but the overall demand is not much ($250k vs. $1M).

The perfect example of this is the total dollars associated with all the slabbed copies of Spawn #1 versus any of the other Spawn appearances/advertisements/previews.

Individual Spawn books sell for much higher than Spawn #1, but no early Spawn alternative even comes close to Spawn #1 in terms of PRICE times QUANTITY.

Data nerds who want more: www.cgcemc.com

Edited June 18, 2022 by valiantman

[Lord Gemini]

On 6/17/2022 at 11:01 PM, D2 said:

I think simple minds are attracted to pretty things and lack the awareness that it’s the writing which sticks to their minds. 
 

Well, that's not condescending at all. I appreciate great art and often get variant covers that I like. I'm not saying this book is worth that much, but just because you don't appreciate a cover on that level, it doesn't mean someone else shouldn't.

[D2]

On 6/18/2022 at 2:01 PM, Lord Gemini said:

Well, that's not condescending at all. I appreciate great art and often get variant covers that I like. I'm not saying this book is worth that much, but just because you don't appreciate a cover on that level, it doesn't mean someone else shouldn't.

Well, this is why making comments is difficult, because one thing written or said about one specific aspect, gets taken out of context and applied universally. 
 

My comment was actually in agreement with you. You absolutely can enjoy beautiful things. I buy beautiful things all the time.
 

I comment that there is a fundamental difference on buying something because it’s beautiful and buying something that is outrageously overpriced, or overextending yourself because you need to have this beautiful thing in your life.

 

It also becomes a comment on priorities as well, where, I hate to say it, but if spending large sums of money on beautiful things is a personal priority, well then we fundamentally have vastly different life priorities.

 

Lastly, as I know someone will inevitably bring up the point ‘Maybe $15,000 on a variant cover isn’t a lot of money for them’, then great. But then this conversation wouldn’t really relate to them at all in the first place.

 

 

 

[Juno Beach]

On 6/18/2022 at 8:44 AM, D2 said:

No lol! There’s not!

What $15,000 art prints are you buying?

Or $10,000… or $2,000! 
 

You can buy art prints, sure, just as easily as you can buy a stamp and a coin. You can go buy a cow if you’d like. 
 

We’ve talked about this before. You are comparing comic books and their art to Fine Art. And they are not. Comic books and their art are Applied Arts. Although seemingly the same… are entirely different. 

Not by any definition I can find. 

[D2]

On 6/19/2022 at 5:08 PM, Juno Beach said:

Not by any definition I can find. 

“Fine art refers to any form of visual art that cannot be used for commercial or practical purposes.”

 

“Applied art is any form of art created with a specific practical purpose in mind. This type of art can be found in various mediums, such as design, decoration, and even advertising. Applied art is often used for commercial or utilitarian purposes.”

Fine art vs applied art

 

You’re welcome.

 

[World Devourer]

On 6/20/2022 at 10:09 AM, D2 said:

“Fine art refers to any form of visual art that cannot be used for commercial or practical purposes.”

 

“Applied art is any form of art created with a specific practical purpose in mind. This type of art can be found in various mediums, such as design, decoration, and even advertising. Applied art is often used for commercial or utilitarian purposes.”

Fine art vs applied art

 

You’re welcome.

 

👍  

 

I think we can all agree the item is question is grossly overpriced.

[D2]

On 6/20/2022 at 7:22 AM, World Devourer said:

👍  

 

I think we can all agree the item is question is grossly overpriced.

Lol

yes. I think that is a fair and accurate statement. 

[MetalPSI]

On 6/19/2022 at 3:08 PM, Juno Beach said:

Not by any definition I can find. 

These gabools, eh?

Amirite?

 

[darkstar]

On 6/18/2022 at 10:44 AM, D2 said:

No lol! There’s not!

What $15,000 art prints are you buying?

Or $10,000… or $2,000! 
 

You can buy art prints, sure, just as easily as you can buy a stamp and a coin. You can go buy a cow if you’d like. 
 

We’ve talked about this before. You are comparing comic books and their art to Fine Art. And they are not. Comic books and their art are Applied Arts. Although seemingly the same… are entirely different. 

There are countless art prints that command a lot of money, a major contributing factor usually being the extremely limited number that were produced...no different than comic book cover variants. The original artwork isn't available so collectors are going to buy the next best thing. 

Your incessant drone about what does and does not constitute fine art is a) nonsense and b) irrelevant. The realized prices are what the market will bear. Your inability to grasp why someone would pay 3,4, 5 figures for a piece of artwork that features Superman or Batman because you think of it as low art is your problem. 

Also, in the modern grail thread you literally posted a bunch of books that are of absolutely no significance to the comic book market outside of their cover artwork being seen as desirable. 

[D2]

On 6/22/2022 at 2:46 PM, darkstar said:

There are countless art prints that command a lot of money, a major contributing factor usually being the extremely limited number that were produced...no different than comic book cover variants. The original artwork isn't available so collectors are going to buy the next best thing. 

Your incessant drone about what does and does not constitute fine art is a) nonsense and b) irrelevant. The realized prices are what the market will bear. Your inability to grasp why someone would pay 3,4, 5 figures for a piece of artwork that features Superman or Batman because you think of it as low art is your problem. 

Also, in the modern grail thread you literally posted a bunch of books that are of absolutely no significance to the comic book market outside of their cover artwork being seen as desirable. 

 

“(I) literally posted a bunch of books that are of absolutely no significance to the comic book market outside of their cover artwork being seen as desirable.”
 

The level of aggression and viciousness you present is borderline hysterical. 
 

I can only wish you the best of best in this world my friend, because with a perspective, attitude, and world view like yours, I can only imagine how difficult living would be for you. 
 

Edit: I have also come to believe that you are, unfortunately, a toxic individual, not interested in any good thought or interactions. So you have been permanently blocked. Good luck in the future

Edited June 22, 2022 by D2

[MetalPSI]

On 6/22/2022 at 1:02 PM, D2 said:

 

“(I) literally posted a bunch of books that are of absolutely no significance to the comic book market outside of their cover artwork being seen as desirable.”
 

The level of aggression and viciousness you present is borderline hysterical. 
 

I can only wish you the best of best in this world my friend, because with a perspective, attitude, and world view like yours, I can only imagine how difficult living would be for you. 
 

Edit: I have also come to believe that you are, unfortunately, a toxic individual, not interested in any good thought or interactions. So you have been permanently blocked. Good luck in the future

Why, is it a pump and dump?

[Beastfeast]

On 6/22/2022 at 2:46 PM, darkstar said:

There are countless art prints that command a lot of money, a major contributing factor usually being the extremely limited number that were produced...no different than comic book cover variants. The original artwork isn't available so collectors are going to buy the next best thing. 

Your incessant drone about what does and does not constitute fine art is a) nonsense and b) irrelevant. The realized prices are what the market will bear. Your inability to grasp why someone would pay 3,4, 5 figures for a piece of artwork that features Superman or Batman because you think of it as low art is your problem. 

Also, in the modern grail thread you literally posted a bunch of books that are of absolutely no significance to the comic book market outside of their cover artwork being seen as desirable. 

It's very true - there are art prints that command a dumb amount of money.  Some make sense, some don't.

However, he is right in the definition of fine art.  The price that a variant commands on the market doesn't make it fine art.  Same for a piece of OA.  

None of this is to talk down to something you enjoy but there are working definitions for these terms.  I think the tone might be what's getting in your crawl.  

Edited June 22, 2022 by Beastfeast

[World Devourer]

On 6/23/2022 at 4:46 AM, darkstar said:

 

Also, in the modern grail thread you literally posted a bunch of books that are of absolutely no significance to the comic book market outside of their cover artwork being seen as desirable. 

I'll try to be brief.

Ours is a cover hobby now. We live by the covers.

The CGC rating is proof positive of this, as it dictates the price range, and of course, the "want" factor.

The variants are desirable BECAUSE of the slight cover differences, a la Incredible Hulk #377 (3rd print), Vengeance of Moon Knight #1 (Virgin edition), and of course Danger Girl #2 (Ruby Red).

Finally, feel free to deconstruct a fellow poster's argument, but don't attack the person. All that will do is attract the attention of the moderator.

Edited June 23, 2022 by World Devourer

[CGC Mike]

On 6/22/2022 at 11:37 PM, World Devourer said:

Finally, feel free to deconstruct a fellow poster's argument, but don't attack the person. All that will do is attract the attention of the moderator.

I am already aware of the situation.  Strong words have posted by both parties.  If it continues, it will result in a ban from the topic or worse.

[darkstar]

On 6/22/2022 at 3:56 PM, Beastfeast said:

However, he is right in the definition of fine art.  

 

What does and does not constitute fine art is irrelevant to the discussion. The user wrote that he didn't understand the pricing that rare variant covers bring. I introduced the analogy that rare variants are analogous to art prints - in that they aren't the original artwork but can still bring in a lot of money because of the art itself and the limited number produced. 

On 6/22/2022 at 3:56 PM, Beastfeast said:

 The price that a variant commands on the market doesn't make it fine art.  Same for a piece of OA.  

 

Nobody stated that it did.

[darkstar]

On 6/22/2022 at 10:37 PM, World Devourer said:

I'll try to be brief.

Ours is a cover hobby now. We live by the covers.

The CGC rating is proof positive of this, as it dictates the price range, and of course, the "want" factor.

The variants are desirable BECAUSE of the slight cover differences, a la Incredible Hulk #377 (3rd print), Vengeance of Moon Knight #1 (Virgin edition), and of course Danger Girl #2 (Ruby Red).

Finally, feel free to deconstruct a fellow poster's argument, but don't attack the person. All that will do is attract the attention of the moderator.

I didn't attack anyone, I asked the user if his posts were serious since he's on a comic book forum asking how anyone that enjoys the hobby could place a high value on the artwork within it. That is a straight nonsensical post. I then made a comparison between variant covers and art prints and pointed out his hypocrisy in that he questioned how someone could place value solely on a book based on the cover artwork when he owns books that are valued solely because of the artwork on the front and not the words on the interior. 

Also I don't need to be made aware of why variants are desirable, thanks. 

[D2]

On 6/27/2022 at 5:45 PM, darkstar said:

I didn't attack anyone

You did, though