Sent in Pedigree Came back Qualified No Pedigree 2 2

[BlackOut21]

Hi I sent the below book in as a Big Apple Pedigree 3.5 and just received the notes that it is 2.5 qualified and no Pedigree.  Definitely purchased from a reputable source that has always been spot on with grading.  The distinctive marks seem to be clear. Just curious what I did wrong, or if that is normal?

All comments suggestions welcome.

 

[Professor K]

That stinks. The grade you get is always wide open but why did they qualify it? 

[BlackOut21]

Centerfold Married.

The rest of the notes have tape on cover and interior.

I wasn't sure if I did something wrong when submitting.

[Straw-Man]

you indicated "big apple" on the form?  it does have the "j".

[Courageous Cat]

On 6/23/2022 at 10:53 PM, BlackOut21 said:

 

All comments suggestions welcome.

 

yeah, return it to the scammer

[zzutak]

On 6/23/2022 at 7:53 PM, BlackOut21 said:

All comments suggestions welcome.

I personally would not grade this book higher than a 2.5 GD+ (due to the heavy FC chipping and the very worn & taped BC spine).  So I'll support CGC in that respect.    I see the pencil mark in the B of BATMAN, but the overall condition of the book is far lower than any verified GA Big Apple I've ever seen.  One collector's opinion.  

 

[buttock]

I bought an early GA book from Joe Latino way back when that was around a 3.0 and a Big Apple, but IIRC there's been some concern about non-Big Apple books being labeled otherwise (didn't CGC revoke it as a pedigree a while ago?).  In the case of a book like this, attribution of provenance is going to be a best guess, and with only a somewhat typical marking and no other identifiers my guess is that CGC would need more proof.  

[Sauce Dog]

Yeah, this happens. I just submitted a book to re-slabbed since they missed the pedigree when the original owner slabbed it originally, but still came back universal even though the pedigree mark was right there on the cover. No response from CGC when I contacted them after about why/how pedigrees are acknowledged.

[JollyComics]

https://www.cgccomics.com/resources/pedigree/big-apple/

[zzutak]

Correct!  Some pedigrees have distinctive original owner markings on at least part of the collection (Windy City, Winnipeg, etc).  Other pedigrees have distinctive distributor or retailer markings (or no markings at all).  And we all know that distributors/retailers distributed/sold more than a single copy of each issue.  Hence, in the absence of a distinctive, nearly-impossible-to-forge cover/interior marking (supported by other condition characteristics, such as a distinctive odor or white pages), knowledge of a book's provenance becomes essential.  And, in my opinion, that's the way it should be. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by zzutak

[jaybuck43]

On 6/23/2022 at 11:21 PM, BlackOut21 said:

Centerfold Married.

The rest of the notes have tape on cover and interior.

I wasn't sure if I did something wrong when submitting.

With a married centerfold you're going to get a conserved/qualified label.  As to the pedigree, as others have said, you might need more provenance to the fact that it is big apple.  I'm very surprised as to the condition, given that many of the other big Apple Books from that time frame are in MUCH better shape.

[comicginger1789]

On 6/24/2022 at 9:52 AM, zzutak said:

I personally would not grade this book higher than a 2.5 GD+ (due to the heavy FC chipping and the very worn & taped BC spine).  So I'll support CGC in that respect.    I see the pencil mark in the B of BATMAN, but the overall condition of the book is far lower than any verified GA Big Apple I've ever seen.  One collector's opinion.  

 

This is how I felt...to my limited knowledge, the condition on many Big Apple books is much better. Yes the marking is similar but when you consider that these books were bought by an original owner and then found (to my knowledge relatively untouched since the late 60s) in the 90s and sold throughout the end of that decade, I find it hard to believe that the book got in this poor of shape since then (even if it did change hands). It would have been bought with the prestige by a collector and likely still look as it did in the early 90s.

I have seen similar pencil marks on covers of books so I am guessing CGC does not attribute that alone as a sole indicator. If you can provide better proof (this "reliable" guy you bought from must have a story...I would start there and trace it back as far as possible to see if a legit Big Apple book is in your possession).

My gut feeling is you were lied to...either indirectly or directly.

[comicginger1789]

Not sure how to search registry for pedigree books but the lowest graded I could find with a quick Gershmoogle is a 5.5 copy of a GA book

Another thing (and this is after looking at about 50 or so images), I have NOT seen a Big Apple book with other markings on them...yours has two 6's scribbled in an entirely different colour on top edge in addition to the pencil markings.

Unless this copy was clean and somehow, from the time the owner died to the time they were found, this book got out into circulation through the 70s and 80s and got beat up in addition to getting written on...I think you are at the unfortunate end of a series of lies as someone at some point thought they could pass this off as a pedigree book. Likely during the 90s/early 2000s when these books were selling well at Christie's and someone thought they would take a chance and create a lie.

[jaybuck43]

On 6/24/2022 at 1:40 PM, comicginger1789 said:

Not sure how to search registry for pedigree books but the lowest graded I could find with a quick Gershmoogle is a 5.5 copy of a GA book

Another thing (and this is after looking at about 50 or so images), I have NOT seen a Big Apple book with other markings on them...yours has two 6's scribbled in an entirely different colour on top edge in addition to the pencil markings.

Unless this copy was clean and somehow, from the time the owner died to the time they were found, this book got out into circulation through the 70s and 80s and got beat up in addition to getting written on...I think you are at the unfortunate end of a series of lies as someone at some point thought they could pass this off as a pedigree book. Likely during the 90s/early 2000s when these books were selling well at Christie's and someone thought they would take a chance and create a lie.

Lowest I've seen is a 4.5 that looked really nice (probably had much of the damage on the back.  I really don't think this is the Big Apple copy.  Here's why.  The mid 1940s books in the Big Apple collection were stored in a trunk in the house.  The "newer" books were stored in a shed.  That's why so many of them have lower page quality (cream to off white etc.)  But if you go back and look at those 1940s books, they have gorgeous page quality (usually white pages).  This book has rat chew (or some other non-marvel chipping), taped up back cover, a missing centerfold that was then married in.  I mean, it fits none of the rest of the pedigree as I've seen it.  Also, OP, you said that it was purchased from a "reputable" source but then seemed surprised about the married centerfold.  Was that fact disclosed to you at time of purchase?  I mean we all make mistakes, but I think a dealer would catch a married centerfold especially on a GA book where it happens more regularly and we know to check for it.

[comicginger1789]

^ Very true

Sadly, some of the most untrustworthy folks start off as seemingly so in order to drop an egg on you.

Case in point the lovely CGC boardie who joined before Christmas, seemingly fit in and participated, joined a couple gift exchanges and then proceeded to claim/receive some gifts from people while not sending any of his own promised donations out. Again, seemingly friendly, cordial and someone who participated within our community here but alas, unless something tragic has prevented him from being here for 4 months, was only ever here to swindle.

[revat]

Being a reputable dealer isn't about getting everything right all the time (though you shouldn't just get everything wrong), its about how you deal with mistakes that you make.

With that being said, the grade is subjective and even reputable dealers might grade a bit too generously on their own wares.  To me it looks like a 2.5 or 3.0 and maybe CGC hammered harder with the marrying (it puts a bad taste in the grader's mouth).  But just on the face of it 2.5 looks in the range to me.

And the pedigree, everyone's threshold of certainty is different.  Some might call it a pedigree at "more likely than not", which could literally just be 51% sure its a pedigree.  Another dealer or grader might need more convincing or just have more specific knowledge of the pedigree.  My guess is CGC both has a higher standard more knowledge than most dealers for pedigrees, as their reputation is literally on the line.

The tough part is the qualified grade, that one is on the dealer to me, unless its a really good job and its tough to tell, which is theoretically is why people buy comics already slabbed, so they know what they're getting.  

 

[zosocane]

On 6/24/2022 at 10:38 AM, Sauce Dog said:

No response from CGC when I contacted them after about why/how pedigrees are acknowledged.

Same thing happened to me on an Okajima (non-camp) that I sent in with a dealer's certificate of provenance plus the distinctive pencil-marked code on the fc plus me clearly marking it on the submission form.  Came back blue label.  I had to go through the effort of packing up and sending the book back to CGC.  They corrected it but no apology or explanation.

[Straw-Man]

On 6/24/2022 at 12:40 PM, comicginger1789 said:

Not sure how to search registry for pedigree books but the lowest graded I could find with a quick Gershmoogle is a 5.5 copy of a GA book

Another thing (and this is after looking at about 50 or so images), I have NOT seen a Big Apple book with other markings on them...yours has two 6's scribbled in an entirely different colour on top edge in addition to the pencil markings.

Unless this copy was clean and somehow, from the time the owner died to the time they were found, this book got out into circulation through the 70s and 80s and got beat up in addition to getting written on...I think you are at the unfortunate end of a series of lies as someone at some point thought they could pass this off as a pedigree book. Likely during the 90s/early 2000s when these books were selling well at Christie's and someone thought they would take a chance and create a lie.

many, many books below 5.5 are out there in ped holders.  here's a 4.5 mile high, for example.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/feature-comics-36-mile-high-pedigree-quality-1940-cgc-vg-45-off-white-to-white-pages-this-rather-atypical-mile-high-c/a/808-4332.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

[Straw-Man]

here is a ha archives search of "pedigree" and "3.5."

https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=0+790+231&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Nty=1&Ntt=pedigree+3.5&limitTo=all&ic4=KeywordSearch-A-K-071316

[comicginger1789]

On 6/25/2022 at 9:54 AM, Straw-Man said:

many, many books below 5.5 are out there in ped holders.  here's a 4.5 mile high, for example.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/feature-comics-36-mile-high-pedigree-quality-1940-cgc-vg-45-off-white-to-white-pages-this-rather-atypical-mile-high-c/a/808-4332.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

I know that, my apologies as I was unclear. I specifically meant that for the Big Apple one, most are higher...that's all. Especially the Golden Age ones. 5.5 was lowest Big Apple I could find. Many are 7.0-9.0 or so.

Edited June 25, 2022 by comicginger1789