Are we are on the cusp of a huge Paradigm shift in this Hobby?

[jbud73]

Maybe we have been for a long time - it is after all the 5th year of CGC and most start ups in North America anyway revolve around a business plan of this time length. I have always tried to do an assessment of what I'm looking to purchase in the new year. In the past this has entailed looking at my collection, looking at the OS and looking to the future to see what I will and will not be buying next year.

 

Most times its not pragmatic or market driven at all. I usually get turned on to new Back Issue books, new artists, genre's etc etc. That's how a want list get too big, not finishing one thing while starting new projects. No doubt my love of comics has made me guilty of that almost every year.

 

This year will be different however. After reading all the posts and keeping myself devoid of emotion while going back and reading the larger posts made by Steve on behalf of CGC I cannot shake my knowledge of a predetermined manipulation of the comic book hobby. I spent way too long employing techniques on behalf of the government that I have come to see in use in comics, granted on a much smaller scale. I have also come to see the frustration that occurs in public when these initiatives have been successful. Its almost like they thrown up their arms in defeat and say, "Ok, give us what we were dead set against in the first place because we are tired of being in the dark."

 

However I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to stay the course. This year because CGC controls the HG market to a large extent my collecting goals will now more than ever be colored by what they do in the next few months and how successful, or lack thereof these policies become. The importance of staying the course was brought out to me by reading my friend CW's repsonse to something I wrote in the 2nd CGC response thread.

 

I was going to read all 70+ pages of this thread but after reading the first few when they were fresh and then Jbud's excellent highlights I just decided to read a comic instead. I am happy with my choice. I like to think of myself as a man of action and I get angry when things keep getting rehashed over and over again. My natural reaction is to either do something or move on and obviously we can't simply move on so with some restraint I am trying to keep up to speed with the facts and important events while trying to avoid the endless discussion. Does anyone else find these endless topics on all of this [embarrassing lack of self control] nauseating? Not to say that they aren't necessary.

 

Sure the endless discussion is frustrating Chris, but in large part its meant to be frustrating, trust me this is a desired response strategy. Many people have pointed out that Steve has picked his arguements and posts VERY carefully in the big CGC threads. Now I'm sure he's busy and can't look at everything thats been posted in all the tangent threads - but trust me someone from CGC watched the 2 response threads.

 

Why? Well even though CGC is a business and they have the right to disclose or more importantly not to disclose whatever they want, the court of public opinion is still vital to almost every business I can think of. With CGC, as a part of their business is based on public perception - the Court of public opinion is HUGE.

 

In the public, speculation can be a good thing and it can be a bad thing. The standard rule of any good public relations strategy is to have it work for you at all times, but monitor it closely.

 

So with the Friesen situation CGC stays silent for a long time. They do not deny that PCS is an entity, however they do not release details either. Instead they play the shell game. "Steve saying, well I am not a party to PCS, so its not my place to say." Steve will nip in the bud speculation that is bad and erroneous. IE. That Friesen trimmed books, or that he (Steve) was a managing partner in PCS.

 

But as to what Chris and PCS are going to be doing the Golden Rule is at play.

 

"If the truth does not paint your entity in a positive light, then speculation is not a bad thing because confirmation of the truth will always be worse." The only time you step in is if the speculation goes beyong the truth in terms of negative perception of public opinion. Steve was quick to do that everytime the speculation got out of hand - however he never went the step further because he was not required to do so.

 

When understood from this angle Speculation is actually a GOOD thing, when the alternative IE that Friesen was pressing books for select CGC submitters is the actuality of the situation. CGC has gotten a lot of mileage over what we used to call in government "The Hint of Doubt" It never ceased to amaze me what people will deny when armed with the hint of doubt.

 

If you look at the initial DD 11 Green River thread and this final thread - or the PCS announcement. You will see how much CGC has been able to get tacit acceptance in the court of public opinion by keeping the hint of doubt high and releasing only bits of information, but never giving the complete picture until well after they are on the the next policy implementation strategy.

 

I have to say that if this was not predetermined in policy meetings by Halperin et al then I will chop up my thinking cap. After reading the Halperin history its evident that he knows how to manuever on the edge of public opinion and legal culpability. I am dead certain he would have ended up in public office of some sort had the private sector not been so lucrative. Trust me the powers that be at CCG / Heritage know how to manipulate the collective consciousness of a nostalgic based commodities market. They did it with coins and are now poised for a repeat performance in comics.

 

If I wasn't part of the collective in comics that they were trying to manipulate - from a professional perspective I would probably have offered my services long ago. Even though I worked for the biggest manipulator of public opinion possible - a Federal Government agency. I think I could still learn a thing or two from these guys and vice versa.

 

So with that knowledge in hand I will be asking myself how much of my HG collecting will be colored by the blue label?

[sterlingcomics]

I think there is always subtle shifts moving along--I'm not quite convinced the comic hobby is going to be dramatically changed in the short term. We've discussed how there is increasing content of comics that are digitial and in an online format. My guess is that these adopters will be new players in the market, while us traditional comic book collectors will stay with what we grew up with. Not to be confused with a crash, I do see an increasing pressure for hobbyists to spend time in other areas as other entertainment formats battle for our dollar. In the long term I do expect both the format and content to change as we continue to go in the digital age of content consumption.

 

[Off Topic but related]

 

Other areas of entertainment however Iexpect huge changes. I suspect that the old tv model of doing business will cease, and content will be primarily on demand based on IPTV technology. The media will become less important, but providing the consumption of content on an on demand basis will grow.

[goldust40]

It is hard to believe that there has been a detailed masterplan in place since CGC's inception, but then, as you mention, this does seem eerily familiar when you consider the coin market since encapsulation arrived.

 

I'd say that the truth is somewhere in between, and that CGC have muddled through their first five years, looking for ways and means to keep the business solvent and progressive.

 

Despite the Coin magnates moving into the hobby, I'd assume that overall things have been disappointing for them compared to coins - witness JP's withdrawal.

 

The Paradigm shift (i.e. CGC's arrival and incremental dominance) could not have occurred without the internet, and probably ebay, which is where the Coin encapsulation and Comic slabbing markets differ in their histories. The upside for collectors and altruists is that everything can be more closely monitored.

 

Anyway, The Shift occurred with that first Manning auction four years ago, when prices for books suddenly went ballistic. I guess it was one of those perfectly timed moments that we can only speculate on.

 

Which as you said is what is expected.

[batman_fan]

Hey jbud73,

 

I like your post. You express a lot of similar feeling I have. I have been collecting since age 12 (almost 30 years ago). Back when CGC first came around, I sent a letter into the old CBG stating I was reserving my opinion until after I personally saw what their grading was like but that I liked the overall concept given how often dealers are willing to cheat an unsuspecting buyer. After my initial submission, I thought they we really tough on the higher grade stuff and a bit easy on the lower grade stuff (my opinion). Since then, I have looked at how inconsistent their grading is, especially on Golden-Age. Now with the the Ewert affair, Batman 11, etc. and a new thrust to re-define restroration, I think it is time to step back and ask if it really makes sense to continue buying CGC graded books. Of course, what are the other options? buy raw off Ebay? I am starting to think about taking a step back in time to the late 1980's and focus on local comic store purchases and conventions (probably only Wondercon and other local Bay area shows). My purchases off Ebay have gone from about 30/50 a year to 5/10 with most of it original art.

 

I have no plans leaving the comic collecting game, but I am very unhappy with the current direction it is taking.

[jbud73]

Well yes Andy the Manning auction was a huge occurance. However, with the introduction of PCS under the rubrick of CCG and the label changes which are designed to get the word conservation more prominently into out lexicon of acceptance. Do you not see this as a blatant manipulation of comics collectibles?

 

CCG seems poised to become involved in the manipulation of comic books. They accept the books for alteration through PCS. They then grade the books through CGC and finally their auction house (Heritage) auctions them off.

 

That is quite the 3 ring circus they have constructed is it not?

 

[Illiterati-migration]

this does seem eerily familiar when you consider the coin market since encapsulation arrived.

 

 

[goldust40]

this does seem eerily familiar when you consider the coin market since encapsulation arrived.

 

 

 

Yeah, I know. Old news.

[jbud73]

Hey jbud73,

 

I like your post. You express a lot of similar feeling I have. I have been collecting since age 12 (almost 30 years ago). Back when CGC first came around, I sent a letter into the old CBG stating I was reserving my opinion until after I personally saw what their grading was like but that I liked the overall concept given how often dealers are willing to cheat an unsuspecting buyer. After my initial submission, I thought they we really tough on the higher grade stuff and a bit easy on the lower grade stuff (my opinion). Since then, I have looked at how inconsistent their grading is, especially on Golden-Age. Now with the the Ewert affair, Batman 11, etc. and a new thrust to re-define restroration, I think it is time to step back and ask if it really makes sense to continue buying CGC graded books. Of course, what are the other options? buy raw off Ebay? I am starting to think about taking a step back in time to the late 1980's and focus on local comic store purchases and conventions (probably only Wondercon and other local Bay area shows). My purchases off Ebay have gone from about 30/50 a year to 5/10 with most of it original art.

 

I have no plans leaving the comic collecting game, but I am very unhappy with the current direction it is taking.

 

 

I have no plans on going anywhere either. I think all of us will fall somewhere between the "Love it or leave it." attitude put forth by sfilosa / and the "the sky is falling Screw comics, collect Orginal art." Opinion that KK puts forth everyday.

 

People asked well who was Freisen working for. IE if Metro wasnt on his list who's bigger than them? Well A) Heritage and B) Metro doesn't need to have Freisen Press their books, they bought a press long ago and are/were doing it in-house, or through their own private entity.

 

I just want to make sure that everyone's eyes are wide open to the manipulation that I see occuring. This is not about conspiracy theory. You simply can't deny the relationship that exists between CGC - CCG - Heritage - and PCS. Steve B likes to come on here and say that Halperin has never asked him to change a grade on a book. I 100% believe that to be TRUE. Why?

 

For C-H-R-I-S-T sakes he doesn't need to do that. He can just give it to Friesen and it gets the necessary alterations and still maintains the blue label.

 

But more to the point, Halperin and his business partners learned a valuable lesson a long time ago. Why get your hands dirty working on the car when you can own the tools and make money no matter who does the work. I have a hard time believing that the ownership partners at CCG/Hertiage are buying and cracking books for higher grades. They have just set it up so everyone else will want to do that - by owning the playing board rather than being one of the pieces on it, they make out no matter what happens.

[goldust40]

Well yes Andy the Manning auction was a huge occurance. However, with the introduction of PCS under the rubrick of CCG and the label changes which are designed to get the word conservation more prominently into out lexicon of acceptance. Do you not see this as a blatant manipulation of comics collectibles?

 

CCG seems poised to become involved in the manipulation of comic books. They accept the books for alteration through PCS. They then grade the books through CGC and finally their auction house (Heritage) auctions them off.

 

That is quite the 3 ring circus they have constructed is it not?

 

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZNxdm006' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_29_110.gif' alt='' border=0></a>

 

It's a neat summation.

 

Still think the label change may prove to be a bridge too far, though...

[jbud73]

Well yes Andy the Manning auction was a huge occurance. However, with the introduction of PCS under the rubrick of CCG and the label changes which are designed to get the word conservation more prominently into out lexicon of acceptance. Do you not see this as a blatant manipulation of comics collectibles?

 

CCG seems poised to become involved in the manipulation of comic books. They accept the books for alteration through PCS. They then grade the books through CGC and finally their auction house (Heritage) auctions them off.

 

That is quite the 3 ring circus they have constructed is it not?

 

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZNxdm006' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_29_110.gif' alt='' border=0></a>

 

It's a neat summation.

 

Still think the label change may prove to be a bridge too far, though...

 

Andy I only hope that you are right. For the record I was a proponent of doing away with the PLOD and assessing restored books on a more detalied and scietific scale. I supported FFB in his arguements in the grading and restoration forum.

 

However the ideology and the actuality are miles apart, I guess in retrospect I should have known better. It seems to me now that the label change has been implemented for one reason and one reason only. TO legitimize the techniques that are going to be used at PCS and encourage people to use those services to a wider extent now that the PLOD is gone.

 

The synergy of the PCS annoncement and the label changes announcement is NOT coincidence. This is direct market manipulation by CCG, they are changing the rules of the game to suit a business strategy. I don't care how affable Steve is on this one his "we are in it for the love of the Hobby" won't wash because while I may believe that to be mostly true of him - all the people that comprise the term "we" are not in it for the love of the Hobby, in fact they are in it for decidedly opposite reasons.

[Darthdiesel]

nice post but there is nothing major looming around the corner, no turning points, no huge paradigm shifts as you put it. 2005 into 2006 = business as usuall in the comic world and you can take that to the bank!

[Timulty]

Even though I uncomfortable with some of CGC's planned changes(especially, the PCS shop), I do agree on the necessity of certain parts. My belief that conservation in comics, is necessary. Comics are a perishable product. Within the next 50 years, finding a GA comic in nearly prestine state is going to be practically impossible. I believe that conservation is going to be the only practical approach. Unfortunately, too many collectors will view conservation on the same field as restoration. CGC opening a company that provides a conservation service will just create the appearance of inpropriety.

I think what is needed here, is a third party to set the definitions of conservation and restoration. This third party should consist of board members, collectors and professionals in the comics industry. Also, if rival conservation services appear, CGC should allow those comics so conserved, to be rated as conserved with proper verification.

CGC has a certain responsibility to the community to appear, at the very least, not to be furthering their corporate goals at the expense of the industry.

[UnrulyAppendage]

nice post but there is nothing major looming around the corner, no turning points, no huge paradigm shifts as you put it. 2005 into 2006 = business as usuall in the comic world and you can take that to the bank!

 

Hasn't there always been pot holes in the comic book business? It seems now they are exposed much more quickly and buyers are much more informed. I would think collector's confidence would be higher in the long run once people settle down.

[Timulty]

Same here, I just suspect since there is more communication going on, the potholes just seem bigger.

[krazykat-migration]

What about the possibility of people moving into OA ? Anyone think that'll happen ?

[Timulty]

Oh, yes. The expected comment from the OA peanut gallery. Who know's? But you would expect that if comic collecting goes out of vogue, OA would suffer.

[krazykat-migration]

Oh, yes. The expected comment from the OA peanut gallery. Who know's? But you would expect that if comic collecting goes out of vogue, OA would suffer.

 

Really,..I dont see OA and comics as linked.

[Timulty]

But they are. If a comic isn't known, then its OA is languishing in obscurity. I use this analogy. At one point JS Bach's music was virtually unknown. His manuscripts get found, scholarly study ensues, the music gets played and the rest is history. I expect for a move to OA, there really has to be some investigation into the titles, reprints and circulation. Then you will see a particular title's OA start making noise. That is my take on things.

Now, I am not anti-OA, just to let you know. I recently seen some Mike Grell and Alex Ross that I would like to give myduckies for.

I just believe that OA is pretty much dependent on the comics industry.

[krazykat-migration]

I disagree. The zeitgest of AN ERA is reflected by its art,....a Spider-Man,...a SuperMan,...a Wonder Woman will ALWAYS be significant and the corresponding OA will always retain value. If in 100 years there are no Superman comics,..but Superman is franchised around the world,....the OA to Action # 1 Cover Art will still retain its value. Perhaps you are referring to the less significant OA,..but THE BEST will always be relevant as a reflection of man's relation to his history. CULTURAL ART.

[Norrin_Radd]

Really,..I dont see OA and comics as linked.

 

"That is why you fail."