Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's. (1960) Showing Signs of Life! 2 2

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

Tales of Suspense #15, Kirby story/art, Ayers inks

Chapter TWO:

[Prince Namor]

That ending... very Kirby - though he got that from many of the monster movies of the day - in fact they still use that story device today in those type of films, where one guy or guys helps save the world from an alien invasion, and then explain their rationale at the end...

What follows below is the ending to FF #24, NOT the first time he'd use this again, but a good example of the difference and working styles of Kirby and Lee. 

Stan followed Jack's instructions for the end - at this point they were still having story meetings - and Reed explains how he knew what to do to beat the alien - in some instances Lee would follow Jack's idea word for word - in others he'd reword it, sometimes fumble it, sometimes even confuse it - but one thing he definitely did was add the, what I call his "that and 2 bits'll buy you a cup of coffee" dialogue, here supplied by the Thing.

"Aw cut it out before I start bawlin', ya big hambone!" THAT is Stan Lee. The comparisons between what Reed says and what the scientist says in the Kirby written story are very similar. Kirby brought the action, the drama, and the characterization (except when Lee toned it down) - Stan brought the humor and the tongue in cheek. So it's strange that they'd always compare Reed to Stan and Jack to Ben. Because really it's the opposite...

Jack was the serious story teller who loved sci-fi and learning new things, and superheroes and action stories... Stan was always a bit embarrassed to be a part of comics, didn't do much writing if he could help it, and what he did do tended to lean towards humor and cheesecake. 

But... don't worry. The best example of all is coming in two years, when Jack writes (and dialogues) one of the early issues of the FF himself... 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

Kirby is creating at a rapid pace, and would do 13 page lead stories for all 5 of his books for the month. 

For Tales to Astonish #17, Steve Ditko would ink the cover (with Ayers alterations) and Ayers would ink the story inside.

Chapter ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

Tales to Astonish #17, Kirby story/art, Ayers inks

Chapter TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

In October, Steve Ditko again did 4 stories for Marvel. Each would be a 5 pager, with one of the pages being a full splash. From Journey Into Mystery #65. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

In October, Steve Ditko again did 4 stories for Marvel. Each would be a 5 pager, with one of the pages being a full splash. From Tales of Suspense #15. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

In October, Steve Ditko again did 4 stories for Marvel. Each would be a 5 pager, with one of the pages being a full splash. From Tales to Astonish #17. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

In October, Steve Ditko again did 4 stories for Marvel. Each would be a 5 pager, with one of the pages being a full splash. From Strange Tales #82. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

We talk about how limited Stan was on ideas, this story was a retelling of the story from Journey Into Mystery #56 exactly ONE YEAR EARLIER! You can read and compare here: 

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

Steve Ditko must've had a good idea what was coming, because he picked up extra work from Charlton, maybe thinking he'd have to work THERE full time.

He'd do FOUR stories total for them, released in October. We got two more Captain Atom stories in Space Adventures #37 (story by Joe Gill).

In the first one... Holy Smokes, why only 5 pages of story? This reads like a Golden Age story but has some pretty wild concepts... Captain Atom can explode himself like a Nuclear Bomb!

Story ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

Space Adventures #37 - story by Joe Gill - pencils/inks by Steve Ditko

Captain Atom meets a hot Venutian. 

Story TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

Space Adventures #37 - story by Joe Gill, pencils/inks by Steve Ditko

LOL

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

Also from Charlton, Space War #8 - story by Joe Gill, pencils and inks by Steve Ditko.

Look how much nicer and cleaner Ditko's work looks here than on the Captain Atom stories... why is that? 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1960

And finally from Charlton, Unusual Tales #25 - story by Joe Gill, pencils and inks by Steve Ditko.

 

[Zonker]

On 11/7/2022 at 1:20 PM, Prince Namor said:

Well, Stan wasn't actually a writer. He HAD to do it this way.

And when I say that I mean, most comic book writers, have at some point written a full --script we can SEE - something that stands on its own as a story - most have written a novel or TV --script or a movie --script or SOMETHING that we can actually see their ability to tell a story in words of their own. Never saw anything from Stan...

 

Yeah, looking for a completed -script from Stan is kinda like looking for the original sheet music for the Lennon-McCartney compositions.  That's just not the way they worked.  But although the Beatles couldn't actually read musical notation, we know Stan was an accomplished wordsmith.  How do we know this? All those Bullpen Bulletin pages and Stan's Soapboxes, not to mention all those drawn-out Silver Surfer soliloquies (see, he's got me doing his alliteration gig now).  Roy Thomas has a couple of the early typed Fantastic Four plot outlines from Stan which I'm sure you'll get to, and supposedly the Eisner-award winning Parable he did with Moebius started out as a 6 page outline from Stan (not sure whether or not that outline has been published).

I'm all for Kirby and Ditko getting their due credit, but I don't think Stan needs to be re-cast as a talentless hack in order to do so.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1960

Nothing from Marvel. 

The numbers had come in (as discussed at the beginning, and Goodman probably felt it wasn't good enough to keep going...

So what happened?

The clue is in... what. happened.

It tells the whole story... you'll see.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:03 PM, Zonker said:

Yeah, looking for a completed --script from Stan is kinda like looking for the original sheet music for the Lennon-McCartney compositions.  That's just not the way they worked.  But although the Beatles couldn't actually read musical notation, we know Stan was an accomplished wordsmith.  How do we know this? All those Bullpen Bulletin pages and Stan's Soapboxes, not to mention all those drawn-out Silver Surfer soliloquies (see, he's got me doing his alliteration gig now).  Roy Thomas has a couple of the early typed Fantastic Four plot outlines from Stan which I'm sure you'll get to, and supposedly the Eisner-award winning Parable he did with Moebius started out as a 6 page outline from Stan (not sure whether or not that outline has been published).

I'm all for Kirby and Ditko getting their due credit, but I don't think Stan needs to be re-cast as a talentless hack in order to do so.

Well, I'm not saying he was a talentless hack, he just wasn't a writer.

Music is an art form for the ears. Comics are for the eyes. And writers write. 

You do know that Roy (and others) wrote a lot of those Bullpen Bulletins pages for Stan in HIS voice, right?

I'm not here to argue Stan Lee - people love him or they don't. 

I just want to lay out the clues as they appear...

And the clues get even more noticeable as we go along...

 

(And seriously... IMHO I think those Silver Surfer comics blow. I tried reading the whole series a few years ago and I just couldn't do it. Such overwrought pretentiousness. Lee made the Surfer the most annoying character I'd ever tried to read. It just got soooooo tiresome listening to him lament for page after page every issue. Great artwork by Buscema. I just thought the stories sucked. Then again Buscema wasn't a writer either. Some people love it. I don't. And I guarantee you, if they make a movie, they won't use THAT dialogue.)

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1960

For November, Ditko stayed busy with a couple of stories for Charlton. The first was in Mysteries of Unexplored Worlds #22, which he hadn't worked on in a while.  - story by Joe Gill, pencils and inks by Steve Ditko.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1960

For November, Ditko stayed busy with a couple of stories for Charlton. The other was in Strange Suspense Stories #51 - story by Joe Gill, pencils and inks by Steve Ditko.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1960

For December, Marvel finally release 4 titles. The last delivery to the newsstand was on October 27th and they would go almost two whole months until their next delivery: Thursday, December 29th.

But they ARE back. What changed Goodman's mind to keep publishing?

 

First let's look at what would get published in 1961: Journey Into Mystery, Tales of Suspense, Tales to Astonish, and Strange Tales would all see 12 issues. These were all Kirby led comics.

My Girl Pearl - Cancelled after January, Two Gun Kid - Cancelled after January - Two of Stan's titles. 

Millie the Model, Life with Millie, Kathy, Patsy & Hedy, Patsy Walker - all reduced to 6 issues for the year. All Stan Lee titles. 

Rawhide Kid and Kid Colt Outlaw - 6 issues, Gunsmoke Western - 5 issues - Western's that Stan does with Kirby, also reduced. 

Love Romances - 5 and Teen-Age Romances - 5, the issues that Giordano and Colletta work on are reduced.

It's KIRBY's books that get the green light.

 

So what gets added to replace the cancelled titles?

Another Jack Kirby Monster Book, Amazing Adventures!

But there's something different about this book....

but that's for 1961....

 

Goodman was aware that it was Jack's books that were selling.

And Stan's books were NOT.

Stan had to feel some pressure... he'd tried to do some Western's with Jack... was Jack trying to take over the line of comics at Marvel?

Jack could actually create the content.

There had to be a way to take control back...

but that's for 1961...

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1960

For December, Marvel releases 4 titles.

Stan is a part of one:

Gunsmoke Western #63 - Stan does a story with Jack Keller, a story with Jack Kirby and 2 stories with Don Heck. 

 

The other 3 are:

Journey Into Mystery #66 

Love Romances #92 

Teen-Age Romance #80