How does a detached cover come back with an Universal grade? 3 3

[phantomdj]

On 1/19/2023 at 5:31 PM, zzutak said:

Needless to say, missing is way, waay, waaaay more severe/significant than detached. 

 

Agreed.

I don't believe a loose centerfold or one staple detached should be equal in damage to missing pieces, wraps or coupons although CGC treats them the same. While I can understand missing wraps or coupons causing a max 3.0 blue label, the bottom line is that CGC considers foxing, blunting, spine ticks, color rub even staining as less egregious damage, although visible in a slab, than a loose centerfold or one staple detached (which also would cause a max 3.0 blue) that is not visible.

If CGC considered a center detached staple a 1 or 2 point down grade (e.g. 9.0 down to 8.0 but still green) I'm pretty sure most of us would rather have it over a similar book with staining or foxing down graded from 9.0 to 8.0. It's more visually appealing in a slab. Centerfold staples are punished way, way too harshly. I understand popped cover staples but not centerfold staples.

Edited January 19, 2023 by phantomdj
typo

[zzutak]

On 1/19/2023 at 1:50 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Then there are these two, from a Hakes Auction: a Black Terror # 8, CGC 2.0 blue - with the notation "Centerfold Detached" and an Exciting Comics # 37, CGC 2.0 blue, with the notation "Cover Detached." Note: both comics are beaten up enough that those may be the grades anyway despite the defects.

https://www.hakes.com/Auction/ItemDetail/232075/BLACK-TERROR-8-EXCITING-COMICS-37-CGC-20-GOOD-PAIR

Allow me to repeat, verbatim, my statement above:

Except for these relatively rare and easy-to-spot labeling errors, I personally have never seen a CGC Universal Grade higher than 0.5 PR awarded to a book that's missing one or more full leaves.  Qualified (Green Label) Grades higher than 0.5 PR?  Yes.  Universal (Blue Label) Grades higher than 0.5 PR?  No, never.  Respectfully, I hereby request anyone whose experience differs from mine to post a scan in this thread.  Many thanks! 

Books with detached elements (such as the two Hake's examples you cite) do not disprove my statement.  I'm fully aware that a book can receive a Universal Grade as high as CGC 4.0 with a fully detached cover and/or as high as CGC 7.0 or even 7.5 with a fully detached centerfold. 

[Gatsby77]

On 1/19/2023 at 5:31 PM, zzutak said:

Respectfully, Jeff's (@telerites)  Black Terror #1 in CGC Universal 3.0 does NOT have missing wraps.    Rather, the label text reads, "6 center wraps detached. 1 piece of tape on 6 center wraps."  Needless to say, missing is way, waay, waaaay more severe/significant than detached. 

I stand corrected.

Note that I was pulling from the memory of seeing this book in person, more than 15 years ago. I did not pull the grader's notes.

Nevertheless, I still adamantly disagree with the contention that CGC should not downgrade more for true interior damage than it does for less severe - but visible - cover damage like foxing.

It's the difference between grading the book and simply grading the front and back covers.

A book that's ugly due to foxing is still structurally sound in a way that a book missing a coupon or separated at the staple simply is not.

[zzutak]

On 1/19/2023 at 2:34 PM, phantomdj said:

While I can understand missing wraps or coupons causing a max 3.0 blue label ...

Many people read these posts in order to learn about CGC grading.  Hence, I would respectfully request that EVERYONE stop repeating this statement until "proof of life quality" evidence is provided of its correctness.  Until such evidence is provided, I'm placing this statement in the category of Fake News. 

[lizards2]

Here was a universal 7.5 I picked up that had a detached lower staple - boy was I P.O.d, as I did not purchase the grader's notes prior to buying and cracking out the book.

Verify CGC Certification
Certification Information
Certification #:     0203512003
Title:     Green Lantern
Issue:     13
Issue Date:     6/62
Issue Year:     1962
Publisher:     D.C. Comics
Grade:     7.5
Total Graded At:     18
Page Quality:     OFF-WHITE TO WHITE
Grade Date:     01/09/2013
Category:     Universal
Art Comments:     John Broome story
Gil Kane and Joe Giella cover and art
Key Comments:     1st Silver Age Flash crossover.
Green Lantern and Flash reveal
their IDs to each other.
Grader Notes:     Bottom Staple Front Cover Detached
Bottom Staple Moderate Tear
Left Bottom Front Cover Small Scratch Breaks Color

[lizards2]

I also have a blue label 6.5 with a detached staple - I don't know if it was done in encapsulation, or whether it was one of those flaws that they would never mention in such a low-graded comic..., since it is not mentioned in the grader's notes. I am really P.O.d about this one as well.

Verify CGC Certification

New Search

Cert #

 Go

CGC Cert #

2032312002

Title

Showcase

Issue

34

Issue Date

9-10/61

Issue Year

1961

Publisher

D.C. Comics

Grade

6.5

Page Quality

OFF-WHITE TO WHITE

Grade Date

06/05/2019

Grade Category

Universal

Art Comments

Gardner Fox story
Gil Kane and Murphy Anderson
cover and art

Key Comments

Origin and 1st appearance of
the Silver Age Atom (Ray Palmer).
1st appearance of Jean Loring.

Grader Notes

multiple spine stress lines breaks color
small bend right bottom of front cover breaks color
small tear left top of spine

[lizards2]

Here is a qualified 9.2 with a completely detached cover.

Verify CGC Certification
 
CGC Cert #
1306344001
Title
Metamorpho
Issue
1
Issue Date
8/93
Issue Year
1993
Publisher
D.C. Comics
Grade
9.2
Page Quality
OFF-WHITE TO WHITE
Grade Date
04/08/2015
Grade Category
Qualified
Label Text
COVER DETACHED.
Art Comments
Mark Waid story, Graham Nolan cover
Graham Nolan & Ron Boyd art
Grader Notes
Back Cover Lite Multiple Shadow
Interior Detached from Cover

[zzutak]

Hey, Mike!    Having collected and traded in both DCs and Marvels, I can state, with 100% certainty, that blown staples are much more common on Silver Age DCs than on Silver Age Marvels.  How much more common?  About 1.5x~2x more common, based on my own experience.  Some have attributed this phenomenon to slight differences in the thickness of the cover stock (a claim I've never attempted to prove or disprove).  Bottom line?  Be extra careful when examining/handling/purchasing those 1960s DCs! 

Edited January 20, 2023 by zzutak

[lizards2]

On 1/19/2023 at 4:17 PM, zzutak said:

Hey, Mike!    Having collected and traded in both DCs and Marvels, I can state, with 100% certainty, that blown staples are much more common on Silver Age DCs than on Silver Age Marvels.  How much more common?  About 1.5x~2x more common, based on my own experience.  Some have attributed this phenomenon to slight differences in the thickness of the cover stock (a claim I've never attempted to prove or disprove).  Bottom line?  Be extra careful when examining/handling/purchasing those 1960s DCs! 

Right - I noticed CGC finally quit putting microchamber paper between the interior and the covers on SA DC a couple years ago - I think that small amount of thickness was blowing staples out in the encapsulation process.

Some issues are really prone to blown staples - like that Batman with the Beatles cover. Makes me wonder if it was the cover stock that month, or variations in the force in which the staples were placed, or???

This is another thing that sellers need to be aware of - don't ship your books in oversize sleeves - the inner sleeves need to be snug to prevent the books from slopping back and forth. I've seen quite a bit of damage to books shipped in oversize sleeves - the books slop around due to the forces in shipping, bursting the bags, books shifting into tape, and..., oh yes, blown staples.

[phantomdj]

On 1/19/2023 at 6:05 PM, zzutak said:

Many people read these posts in order to learn about CGC grading.

@zzutak I am one of those people and that is why I started this thread in the first place! However, I am constantly getting mixed messages from posters.

As I stated previously, I've read zzutak's "An In-Depth Comparison of Green Label and Blue Label Grading" months ago which I thought was excellent. Well done. It implied or I assumed (rightly or wrongly) from it that ALL books with these Category 1 thru 7 defects would (or should) automatically receive a Green label since it was “identifying specific defects that have led to encapsulation in a Green Label Qualified Grade holder.” This may not be true and I could have been mistaken in inferring that since I have seen exceptions (mistakes?) and wanted to understand why.

This isn’t rocket science (that’s my career) and it’s one thing to debate whether a book should be a 6.5 or a 7.0 but not labels. There should be a standard and consistency with labels. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case. Even in his Green Label write-up zzutak states “a pristine book with a centerfold detached at a single staple will have a Universal Grade as high as 9.2 or 9.4… and a lightly worn book with a completely detached centerfold will have a Universal Grade of 6.5 to 7.0” (not could but will). So which is it? Can I submit a book with a centerfold detached at a single staple (or any Category 2 defect for that matter) and know I will get a Green label or is it a cr@p shoot and I could get a Blue label? That was the point of this thread.

If I know ahead of time that a detached staple will always receive a Green Label then I have done my due diligence and can make an informed decision whether it is worth submitting the books for grading. The fact that some detached staple books are coming back with blue labels graded at 6.5 or higher makes me question what I’m going to get. That is why I brought it up. It’s probably best to assume it will come back in a Green label and if it’s Blue it will be a pleasant surprise for some people (as long as it is not 0.5) but not for all. It just seems way too inconsistent especially when the value of a book is riding on it. Personally, I believe Green labels should be for incomplete books ONLY but that is a discussion for another time.

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by phantomdj
typo

[zzutak]

On 1/20/2023 at 2:00 PM, phantomdj said:

This isn’t rocket science

Very true!  However what follows from this observation is the complete opposite of what you imply.  The fact that condition grading "isn't rocket science" is actually what makes CGC certification more difficult (rather than less difficult) to understand.  Why?  Real people are involved, and human behavior is way, waaay, waaaaay less predictable than phenomena governed primarily by the natural sciences (mathematics, physics, chemistry).

Part of CGCs inconsistency, contradictory outcomes, and/or unpredictability stems from the fact that it's no longer a small operation.  In the early years, there were only a handful of graders, each of whom had significant prior experience/involvement with comics.  Three individuals each assigned a numerical grade to every book.  Were all three grades always identical?  Absolutely not!  Graders may not always see the same blemishes/defects, and they may not always interpret CGC's still-unpublished grading rubric the same way.

Today, neither of these consistency-fostering elements is still in place. However, there would still be some degree of inconsistency, even if CGC employed only a single grader.  To be sure, I know of no experienced collector who always assigns exactly the same grades to each and every book in his/her collection each time he/she looks at 'em.  Condition grades will vary with the clarity of our vision that day, the illumination being used, how much of a rush we're in, how much we had to drink the night before, etc.  In addition, many books are 'tweeners, on the cusp between two adjacent grades.

Here's just one example of why CGC grading is way more unpredictable than rocket science.  On 08-12-2018, one of CGC's very best and most helpful graders made the following statement (link): "A book that is otherwise a 4.0 is really right on the cusp of whether a book with a missing page (or more) merits being Qualified."  He's saying that books with one of more missing leaves and "otherwise" condition grades in the sub-4.0 range should be assigned Universal Grades and encapsulated with Blue Labels.  I have no reason to doubt that this is one of CGC's commonly understood grading standards.  That being said, can I find examples that deviate from this standard?  You bet -- although I will note that the "deviants" are nearly all either Golden Age specimens (that have been awarded Qualified Grades as low as 1.5) or Silver Age mega-keys (that have been awarded Qualified Grades as low as 3.0):

Once you acknowledge the limits on precision and consistency/reproducibility inherent in CGC's approach to condition grading, the process and outcomes should become much less frustrating.  Good luck! 

Edited January 21, 2023 by zzutak

[lizards2]

On 1/20/2023 at 4:10 PM, zzutak said:

Once you acknowledge the limits on precision and consistency/reproducibility inherent in CGC's approach to condition grading, the process and outcomes should become much less frustrating.  Good luck! 

Wait, what?