How does a detached cover come back with an Universal grade? 3 3

[phantomdj]

I have seen a number of SA books with grades above 0.5 (some 3.0, 4.0, etc.) come back as Universal with grader notes of "detached cover." I was under the impression (mistaken?) that all staple pulls, detached covers or center staple detached (top or bottom) would automatically receive a Qualified grade. Could someone explain the rule? Thanks in advance.

Edited January 19, 2023 by phantomdj
typo

[Funnybooks]

All of your examples cited above are not considered restoration for a comic book. 

 

An Overview of Comic Book Restoration

 

Restoration is the act of adding foreign material to a comic book through certain techniques to return its appearance to an ideal or original state. Restoration has existed in some form or another since the inception of comic books, but it has evolved considerably over the past 50 years.

Before comics developed value in the ‘60s, the purpose of restoration was void of value increase, and the methods were crude, using unsafe materials like tape and glue to repair comics. As soon as the first collectors placed value on comic books, restoration began to proliferate. The hobby was new and older comics were still relatively cheap, so value, age, and grade were not significant factors for candidacy; any comic book was susceptible to restoration. Techniques using markers, pens, glue, tape and trimming were obvious, and usually slight in nature. Restoration had virtually no effect on value.

Once Bill Sarrill pioneered the first professional techniques in the late ‘70s, piece fill and color touch became more refined, and new techniques like water and solvent cleaning led to better results. This kind of restoration was more extensive yet harder to spot and was not widespread because of the time and effort involved. Collectors began to recognize that professional restoration could add value to a comic book, a perception that set in motion the restoration of many key issues.

While professional restoration targeted lower grade books, its proliferation in the ‘80s and ‘90s led to minor work on higher grade comics, sometimes with the intent to deceive. Minor restoration techniques like cover cleaning, slight color touch, and staple and spine repairs were utilized to repair small defects that significantly improved grade. As these techniques evolved in sophistication, the skills of some restorers surpassed the detection abilities of most collectors. Lack of disclosure in many transactions led to a general wariness of restoration throughout the hobby.

CGC’s opening in 2000 dramatically influenced the perception and execution of restoration. The thorough restoration check performed on each book exposed hidden enhancements, which subsequently discouraged the act of restoring higher grade comic books. Today it has become taboo to restore any comic that already qualifies for a universal (unrestored) grade. Only incomplete or poorly restored comics are considered for restoration, resulting in a considerably smaller pool of candidates.

There are 11 basic enhancements that qualify as restoration: color touch, piece fill, tear seals, spine split seals, reinforcement, piece re-attachment, cleaning, staple replacement, re-glossing, glue and trimming.

• COLOR TOUCH – This process replaces missing color or masks defects using materials such as acrylic paint, watercolors, pen, crayons, pastels, markers, or white-out. Color touch is sometimes referred to as inpainting.
• PIECE FILL – This is utilized to replace missing paper on a comic book using materials such as leaf casting, rice paper, donor parts from other comics, or xerox paper. It is sometimes referred to as infilling.
• TEAR SEALS – Seals are accomplished using an adhesive such as wheat paste and rice paper, or any type of glue, including white glue, wood glue, superglue or paste.
• SPINE SPLIT SEALS – These are essentially tear seals but occur along a comic book’s spine. Like tear seals, they also utilize adhesives and/or rice paper.
• REINFORCEMENT – This process is used to support weak areas of a comic book, particularly the spine, staple areas, or a corner or edge. It can involve the use of rice paper or glue.
• PIECE RE-ATTACHMENT – Re-attachment of loose pieces are like tear seals, utilizing rice paper and/or various adhesives. They are usually found on the outer edges of a comic book.
• CLEANING – There are three basic types of cleaning; water, solvent and dry. Dry cleaning is not considered restoration. Solvent cleaning involves soaking a cover or pages in a chemical bath to remove certain kinds of tanning or foreign substance. Water cleaning involves a water bath that may contain chemicals that whiten or deacidify paper, or aids in the removal of stains, tanning and creases.
• STAPLE REPLACEMENT OR CLEANING – This involves replacing one or both original staples of a comic book with new or vintage staples, usually done when the original staples have become rusty or broken. Sometimes the original staples are chemically cleaned to remove rust or discoloration.
• RE-GLOSSING – A process that enhances the gloss of a comic cover using a fixative spray.
• GLUE – This is considered an amateur repair using non-archival glue, utilized to seal tears and splits, reinforce weak areas or re-attach loose pieces or pages.
• TRIMMING – A technique that involves cutting off the edges of a comic book’s cover or pages to remove defects and sharpen edges. Unlike the other restoration techniques, trimming results in an improved appearance through destruction (loss of paper).

In 2016 CGC began recognizing conservation, a sub-category of restoration. While restoration focuses in aesthetic improvement, the goal of conservation is to preserve the structural integrity of the comic while removing all things that are detrimental to its longevity. It includes many of the same enhancements as restoration, such as cleaning, tear seals, spine split seals, reinforcement, piece re-attachment, and staple replacement, but excludes aesthetic enhancements like color touch and piece fill. Because amateur materials and techniques are usually unsightly, irreversible or harmful to a comic book, such as re-glossing, trimming and the use of non-archival glue, only professional applications are considered for a conservation classification.

Techniques such as pressing, dry cleaning, tape removal, or any other process that only removes foreign substance is not considered restoration.

While tape could be considered restoration because it is usually used to repair defects, its prevalence on comic books has led collectors to accept tape as a defect rather than restoration. As such, CGC does not recognize tape as restoration, rather downgrading a comic book accordingly if it is present. Because of the destructive nature of tape, CGC believes that is should never be used on a comic book for any reason.

View the CGC Restoration Grading Scale

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/19/2023 at 9:42 AM, Funnybooks said:

All of your examples cited above are not considered restoration for a comic book. 

 

An Overview of Comic Book Restoration

 

Restoration is the act of adding foreign material to a comic book through certain techniques to return its appearance to an ideal or original state. Restoration has existed in some form or another since the inception of comic books, but it has evolved considerably over the past 50 years.

Before comics developed value in the ‘60s, the purpose of restoration was void of value increase, and the methods were crude, using unsafe materials like tape and glue to repair comics. As soon as the first collectors placed value on comic books, restoration began to proliferate. The hobby was new and older comics were still relatively cheap, so value, age, and grade were not significant factors for candidacy; any comic book was susceptible to restoration. Techniques using markers, pens, glue, tape and trimming were obvious, and usually slight in nature. Restoration had virtually no effect on value.

Once Bill Sarrill pioneered the first professional techniques in the late ‘70s, piece fill and color touch became more refined, and new techniques like water and solvent cleaning led to better results. This kind of restoration was more extensive yet harder to spot and was not widespread because of the time and effort involved. Collectors began to recognize that professional restoration could add value to a comic book, a perception that set in motion the restoration of many key issues.

While professional restoration targeted lower grade books, its proliferation in the ‘80s and ‘90s led to minor work on higher grade comics, sometimes with the intent to deceive. Minor restoration techniques like cover cleaning, slight color touch, and staple and spine repairs were utilized to repair small defects that significantly improved grade. As these techniques evolved in sophistication, the skills of some restorers surpassed the detection abilities of most collectors. Lack of disclosure in many transactions led to a general wariness of restoration throughout the hobby.

CGC’s opening in 2000 dramatically influenced the perception and execution of restoration. The thorough restoration check performed on each book exposed hidden enhancements, which subsequently discouraged the act of restoring higher grade comic books. Today it has become taboo to restore any comic that already qualifies for a universal (unrestored) grade. Only incomplete or poorly restored comics are considered for restoration, resulting in a considerably smaller pool of candidates.

There are 11 basic enhancements that qualify as restoration: color touch, piece fill, tear seals, spine split seals, reinforcement, piece re-attachment, cleaning, staple replacement, re-glossing, glue and trimming.

• COLOR TOUCH – This process replaces missing color or masks defects using materials such as acrylic paint, watercolors, pen, crayons, pastels, markers, or white-out. Color touch is sometimes referred to as inpainting.
• PIECE FILL – This is utilized to replace missing paper on a comic book using materials such as leaf casting, rice paper, donor parts from other comics, or xerox paper. It is sometimes referred to as infilling.
• TEAR SEALS – Seals are accomplished using an adhesive such as wheat paste and rice paper, or any type of glue, including white glue, wood glue, superglue or paste.
• SPINE SPLIT SEALS – These are essentially tear seals but occur along a comic book’s spine. Like tear seals, they also utilize adhesives and/or rice paper.
• REINFORCEMENT – This process is used to support weak areas of a comic book, particularly the spine, staple areas, or a corner or edge. It can involve the use of rice paper or glue.
• PIECE RE-ATTACHMENT – Re-attachment of loose pieces are like tear seals, utilizing rice paper and/or various adhesives. They are usually found on the outer edges of a comic book.
• CLEANING – There are three basic types of cleaning; water, solvent and dry. Dry cleaning is not considered restoration. Solvent cleaning involves soaking a cover or pages in a chemical bath to remove certain kinds of tanning or foreign substance. Water cleaning involves a water bath that may contain chemicals that whiten or deacidify paper, or aids in the removal of stains, tanning and creases.
• STAPLE REPLACEMENT OR CLEANING – This involves replacing one or both original staples of a comic book with new or vintage staples, usually done when the original staples have become rusty or broken. Sometimes the original staples are chemically cleaned to remove rust or discoloration.
• RE-GLOSSING – A process that enhances the gloss of a comic cover using a fixative spray.
• GLUE – This is considered an amateur repair using non-archival glue, utilized to seal tears and splits, reinforce weak areas or re-attach loose pieces or pages.
• TRIMMING – A technique that involves cutting off the edges of a comic book’s cover or pages to remove defects and sharpen edges. Unlike the other restoration techniques, trimming results in an improved appearance through destruction (loss of paper).

In 2016 CGC began recognizing conservation, a sub-category of restoration. While restoration focuses in aesthetic improvement, the goal of conservation is to preserve the structural integrity of the comic while removing all things that are detrimental to its longevity. It includes many of the same enhancements as restoration, such as cleaning, tear seals, spine split seals, reinforcement, piece re-attachment, and staple replacement, but excludes aesthetic enhancements like color touch and piece fill. Because amateur materials and techniques are usually unsightly, irreversible or harmful to a comic book, such as re-glossing, trimming and the use of non-archival glue, only professional applications are considered for a conservation classification.

Techniques such as pressing, dry cleaning, tape removal, or any other process that only removes foreign substance is not considered restoration.

While tape could be considered restoration because it is usually used to repair defects, its prevalence on comic books has led collectors to accept tape as a defect rather than restoration. As such, CGC does not recognize tape as restoration, rather downgrading a comic book accordingly if it is present. Because of the destructive nature of tape, CGC believes that is should never be used on a comic book for any reason.

View the CGC Restoration Grading Scale

 

OP didn't mention restoration...

[theCapraAegagrus]

IMO, a detached cover could receive as high as 3.0 in grade. However, based on my research, CGC has given Golden Age books up to 4.0 for a detached cover (under the Universal label). I can't really find anything specific to the SA.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I just found this from 10 years ago:

[Funnybooks]

 

[phantomdj]

I've read zzutak's "An In-Depth Comparison of Green Label and Blue Label Grading" and that is why I brought this up in the first place. The issues I mentioned, all staple pulls, detached covers or center staple detached (top or bottom) I thought would fall under Green label Category 2. So again, why are some books coming back as as Universal grade 3.0 and not Qualified (Green) grade 3.0? I'm confused.

Edited January 19, 2023 by phantomdj

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:49 AM, phantomdj said:

...why are some books coming back as as Universal grade 3.0 and not Qualified (Green) grade 3.0? I'm confused.

The book would have to be in much better condition than 3.0 in order to receive a Qualified label. For example, if it would otherwise grade 7.0 without the detachment, that would be considered for Qualified. If a book is a flat-out 3.0 with all other defects considered, that's not eligible for Qualified.

[marvelmaniac]

This only pertains to a loose/detached cover or centerfold in each grade designation.

VG/FN 5.0 - Centerfold may be loose. 

VG 4.0 - Cover shows moderate to significant wear, and may be loose but not completely detached. Centerfold may be loose or detached at one staple.

GD/VG 3.0 - Cover shows significant wear, and may be loose or even detached at one staple. Centerfold may be loose or detached at one staple.

GD 2.0 - Cover shows significant wear and may even be detached. Centerfold may be loose or detached.

FR/GD1.5 - Cover shows considerable wear and may be detached. Centerfold may be loose or detached.

FR 1.0 - Cover may be detached. The centerfold may be missing if readability is generally preserved.

[phantomdj]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:58 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The book would have to be in much better condition than 3.0 in order to receive a Qualified label. For example, if it would otherwise grade 7.0 without the detachment, that would be considered for Qualified. If a book is a flat-out 3.0 with all other defects considered, that's not eligible for Qualified.

Thanks. That makes more sense.

So what it comes down to is if you have an old book that you think is 3.0 or less you can submit it believing you will get an Universal grade but if it comes back above or you have some books that are 6.0, 7.0 , etc you will have to weigh whether you want to submit them and get the dreaded QLOD.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/19/2023 at 11:09 AM, phantomdj said:

So what it comes down to is if you have an old book that you think is 3.0 or less you can submit it believing you will get an Universal grade but if it comes back above or you have some books that are 6.0, 7.0 , etc you will have to weigh whether you want to submit them and get the dreaded QLOD.

You can request (by Post-It note, or something) that CGC gives you a Universal label, and therefor the lower grade, but they are not obliged to fulfill that request.

[Gatsby77]

Here's another example.

I was at a live (and simultaneous eBay) auction back in April 2007 of some sweet Nedor books.

The Black Terror # 1 was a universal CGC 3.0 - but with the notation on the label that it was missing two interior wraps. It sold for $420, which was high for the time.

Why?

It presented like a 7.0+.

Most beautiful 3.0 I've ever seen, but I agree with the call -- in this case, the consigner could have chosen the higher green label instead.

Which would you prefer - a Qualified (Green) 7.0 or a Universal (Blue) 3.0?

[comicginger1789]

A book missing ANYTHING (pages, coupon, etc) should always come back with a qualified label IMO. I know that is not how it is but I think blue labels should be reserved for complete books only. I would not want to own a blue label 3.0 book with notes saying there is a missing page/cut out/whatever. I know that this is done though on older books and I just personally disagree with it.

I also think that a book with an unverified signature should NOT be qualified. I also don't know if giving such a book a blue label makes sense (because you could have a 9.6-9.8 copy with an unverified signature that gets hits hard with a 7.5-8.0 blue label....that stings). I almost wonder if another colour is needed for unverified signatures but that probably is unecessary.

[Gatsby77]

On 1/19/2023 at 1:03 PM, comicginger1789 said:

A book missing ANYTHING (pages, coupon, etc) should always come back with a qualified label IMO. I know that is not how it is but I think blue labels should be reserved for complete books only. I would not want to own a blue label 3.0 book with notes saying there is a missing page/cut out/whatever. I know that this is done though on older books and I just personally disagree with it.

I also think that a book with an unverified signature should NOT be qualified. I also don't know if giving such a book a blue label makes sense (because you could have a 9.6-9.8 copy with an unverified signature that gets hits hard with a 7.5-8.0 blue label....that stings). I almost wonder if another colour is needed for unverified signatures but that probably is unecessary.

I disagree.

Grading is holistic - taking in the totality of damage to the book.

If the damage happens to be a missing piece - or page - detached cover, that's fine. It's still damage.

Harbinger # 1 is another fairly common example. There are 185 qualified copies on the census, due to the many that had the coupon cut out.

I fundamentally believe you should be able to choose between say...9.6 green and 3.0 blue for that book. The coupon missing is damage, and should be treated as damage. Pretending it's a higher grade *if only* the coupon were still there, is just...dumb.

Other key books likely with this split:

Hulk 181 (Marvel Value Stamp missing)

Batman 181 (centerfold poster missing)

Edited January 19, 2023 by Gatsby77

[phantomdj]

On 1/19/2023 at 1:20 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Grading is holistic - taking in the totality of damage to the book.

If the damage happens to be a missing piece - or page - detached cover, that's fine. It's still damage.

I fundamentally believe you should be able to choose between say...9.6 green and 3.0 blue for that book. The coupon missing is damage, and should be treated as damage. Pretending it's a higher grade *if only* the coupon were still there, is just...dumb.

While I agree, in general, with most of your comments that damage is damage, in my opinion a book that looks great (9.0+) but has one center staple detached or coupon missing (that can't be seen slabbed) should not be down graded so harshly to a blue 3.0 while another book that looks great but the back has foxing or water damage may only be down graded to an 7.5 or 8.0. So what CGC is saying is that some unseen damage when slabbed is worth a 5 or 6 point (grade) down grade but seen damage may only down grade a book by a grade or two. I'd like to see a detached center staple be a one point down grade (maybe 2) like, foxing, blunting or water damage. It's just too big of a hit. My

[zzutak]

On 1/19/2023 at 9:15 AM, Gatsby77 said:

Here's another example.

I was at a live (and simultaneous eBay) auction back in April 2007 of some sweet Nedor books.

The Black Terror # 1 was a universal CGC 3.0 - but with the notation on the label that it was missing two interior wraps.

Interesting.  Perhaps this was an "early" box-check/labeling error?    Here's a mistake of this type from 2014.  The fact that the label notes (12TH PAGE MISSING. DOES NOT AFFECT STORY. INCOMPLETE) are all cap is the "tell" that the CGC grader(s) intended for this specimen to be assigned a Qualified Grade of 6.0 and encapsulated with a Green Label.

Except for these relatively rare and easy-to-spot labeling errors, I personally have never seen a CGC Universal Grade higher than 0.5 PR awarded to a book that's missing one or more full leaves.  Qualified (Green Label) Grades higher than 0.5 PR?  Yes.  Universal (Blue Label) Grades higher than 0.5 PR?  No, never.

Respectfully, I hereby request anyone whose experience differs from mine to post a scan in this thread.  Many thanks! 

[PovertyRow]

On 1/19/2023 at 7:58 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The book would have to be in much better condition than 3.0 in order to receive a Qualified label. For example, if it would otherwise grade 7.0 without the detachment, that would be considered for Qualified. If a book is a flat-out 3.0 with all other defects considered, that's not eligible for Qualified.

Perfect explanation of the Qualified concept!

When the first Overstreet Grading Guide came out 20+ years ago I was kind of shocked to see some defects that stated (paraphrasing here) "only allowable in VG or lower". I called Gary Carter and I posed this to him: "If you have a true NM book that has this one defect and put it up against the same book but with the usual accumulation of defects including the one in question, would that be an accurate assessment of the book's condition?" He literally took several seconds to think this over before responding. This led to a very interesting conversation overall and he intimated that we may see something to deal with this in the next issue. 

[Gatsby77]

On 1/19/2023 at 4:14 PM, zzutak said:

Interesting.  Perhaps this was an "early" box-check/labeling error?    Here's a mistake of this type from 2014.  The fact that the label notes (12TH PAGE MISSING. DOES NOT AFFECT STORY. INCOMPLETE) are all cap is the "tell" that the CGC grader(s) intended for this specimen to be assigned a Qualified Grade of 6.0 and encapsulated with a Green Label.

Except for these relatively rare and easy-to-spot labeling errors, I personally have never seen a CGC Universal Grade higher than 0.5 PR awarded to a book that's missing one or more full leaves.  Qualified (Green Label) Grades higher than 0.5 PR?  Yes.  Universal (Blue Label) Grades higher than 0.5 PR?  No, never.

Respectfully, I hereby request anyone whose experience differs from mine to post a scan in this thread.  Many thanks! 

I disagree.

Again - the thesis here is that, when a book has a particular defect that drags it down (like pieces missing or parts detached) but would otherwise grade much higher, CGC gives a choice between choosing that higher grade in a Green label, or the true grade (including the defect) in Blue.

That's always been my understanding.

I did a quick image search and couldn't find the 3.0 Black Terror # 1 to which I was referring (but I saw it close up when I bid on it live in the room back in 2007).

I did, however, find several more examples:

Greg Reece has a thumbnail of a (since sold) copy of Black Terror # 8, CGC 3.0 blue - with the notation "Incomplete" on the label.

Then there are these two, from a Hakes Auction: a Black Terror # 8, CGC 2.0 blue - with the notation "Centerfold Detached" and an Exciting Comics # 37, CGC 2.0 blue, with the notation "Cover Detached." Note: both comics are beaten up enough that those may be the grades anyway despite the defects.

https://www.hakes.com/Auction/ItemDetail/232075/BLACK-TERROR-8-EXCITING-COMICS-37-CGC-20-GOOD-PAIR

These Black Terror comics came to mind because I was heavily invested in completing the run for more than a decade - and tracked nearly every copy that came up.

 

 

 

[Gatsby77]

Edit - I found a photo of the Black Terror # 1, 3.0 Blue with missing wraps.

It belongs to Telerites, the CGC Census leader for the Black Terror title, with the complete run.

https://comics.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/ComicView.aspx?PeopleSetComicID=123198

Note: It looks closer to a 4.0 without the defect but if you see on the label it clearly denotes the missing wraps - major incomplete book still with a clean Blue label.

[zzutak]

On 1/19/2023 at 1:58 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Edit - I found a photo of the Black Terror # 1, 3.0 Blue with missing wraps.

It belongs to Telerites, the CGC Census leader for the Black Terror title, with the complete run.

https://comics.www.collectors-society.com/WCM/ComicView.aspx?PeopleSetComicID=123198

Note: It looks closer to a 4.0 without the defect but if you see on the label it clearly denotes the missing wraps - major incomplete book still with a clean Blue label.

Respectfully, Jeff's (@telerites)  Black Terror #1 in CGC Universal 3.0 does NOT have missing wraps.    Rather, the label text reads, "6 center wraps detached. 1 piece of tape on 6 center wraps."  Needless to say, missing is way, waay, waaaay more severe/significant than detached.