My Email to CGC... 1 1

[mattn792]

@BCR - more specifics in your email would have helped, such as actual publication dates and marked up photos of each version with arrows, circles...whatever demonstrating the difference between each version that you're highlighting.  The basic wall of text isn't terribly effective.

[BCR]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:33 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The fact that you're talking about Issue #1 and #2 at the same time is driving home my suspicion that you confused CGC. As of this point, I no longer understand your beef with Issue #2. To be honest, it's better off that I leave this thread. Hope you get the response(s) you're looking for.

The notes on the physical comics (which are composed of differing stock) stated succinctly the source of the reprints. 
 

The issue with #2 is that it isn’t reflecting the correct publication date for the reprint toy version. Additionally, the “convention editions” are already under “Issue 2” tier. This creates a new tier. I’m fine with the creation of that new tier for that comic, but the publication date is still incorrect for the toy version reprint.  

[BCR]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:35 AM, mattn792 said:

@BCR - more specifics in your email would have helped, such as actual publication dates and marked up photos of each version with arrows, circles...whatever demonstrating the difference between each version that you're highlighting.  The basic wall of text isn't terribly effective.

I sent in very clear and succinct notes attached to the physical books. I reiterated that they are reprints and even provided their publication date on the note. Additionally, the books are physically different — different stock for the covers. I’ve also since put images in this thread. 

[BCR]

This is a similar situation where, to my knowledge, CGC has not assigned a reprint status to the toy comic for Incredible Hulk 314. 

This is a reprint published at a later date. 
 

People in the know might be able to discern that difference, but the difference should be established on the slab itself. 

[mattn792]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:47 AM, BCR said:

I sent in very clear and succinct notes attached to the physical books. I reiterated that they are reprints and even provided their publication date on the note. Additionally, the books are physically different — different stock for the covers. I’ve also since put images in this thread. 

I would've backed that up in the email.  Counting on the grading folks to not just toss your notations in the trash is a bad bet.

[BCR]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:57 AM, mattn792 said:

I would've backed that up in the email.  Counting on the grading folks to not just toss your notations in the trash is a bad bet.

If the grader is holding two books with completely different paper stock used (literal card stock cover vs non card stock) it feels like they have to intentionally not want to do their job correctly if they’re ignoring notes attached to them.

[mattn792]

On 2/14/2023 at 12:35 PM, BCR said:

If the grader is holding two books with completely different paper stock used (literal card stock cover vs non card stock) it feels like they have to intentionally not want to do their job correctly if they’re ignoring notes attached to them.

There's a lot of people on these very boards who would argue that the graders (and QC, and customer service) are not currently doing their jobs correctly, assuming your notes even made it in front of them in the first place.  The guy unpacking your books might have seen extraneous notes and pitched them immediately.  You and I don't know.  

An email on e-paper gives you a nice trackable record of you informing CGC of your concerns.  

Regardless, I hope this all gets sorted out, and you don't end up out any more unnecessary funds.

[comicginger1789]

The census is the most useless tool on the planet. Bothering to concern yourself with it is a waste of time.

Yes, it is nice to have everything properly labelled and all but with more obscure things on obscure titles, CGC just does not really care. If it does not really move the needle in terms of importance, they don't care. Labelling a first print vs second print of TMNT #1 matters. Labelling a first/second print of the indie series Space Pirates: The Planetary Crusaders from Jarimo Press Inc....not so much.

Also, consider the fact I could send in that book and get a 7.5. But then I crack, press and send back and get 8.0. But THEN I crack and send to a better presser and resubmit and get 8.5. That book shows 3 on the census when really there is 1 book. CGC doesn't care about that and neither should you.

Unless it is a book from the 40s, the census to me does not do much outside of showing rarity in those cases and, in the cases on certain books, which ones are hard to obtain in high grade.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:46 PM, comicginger1789 said:

The census is the most useless tool on the planet. Bothering to concern yourself with it is a waste of time.

That's where I was heading.

[BCR]

On 2/14/2023 at 12:46 PM, comicginger1789 said:

The census is the most useless tool on the planet. Bothering to concern yourself with it is a waste of time.

Yes, it is nice to have everything properly labelled and all but with more obscure things on obscure titles, CGC just does not really care. If it does not really move the needle in terms of importance, they don't care. Labelling a first print vs second print of TMNT #1 matters. Labelling a first/second print of the indie series Space Pirates: The Planetary Crusaders from Jarimo Press Inc....not so much.

Also, consider the fact I could send in that book and get a 7.5. But then I crack, press and send back and get 8.0. But THEN I crack and send to a better presser and resubmit and get 8.5. That book shows 3 on the census when really there is 1 book. CGC doesn't care about that and neither should you.

Unless it is a book from the 40s, the census to me does not do much outside of showing rarity in those cases and, in the cases on certain books, which ones are hard to obtain in high grade.

I care somewhat about the census, but probably even more about the labeling of the collectible being correct. 
 

Secondarily, though, I think the census should have some effort put into it by the community. For instance, when you crack a slab you’re supposed to inform CGC so that they remove it from the census.

The tidier the census, the better the hobby IMO. 

[Lazyboy]

On 2/14/2023 at 12:46 PM, comicginger1789 said:

Labelling a first print vs second print of TMNT #1 matters.

Yeah, you would have hoped they learned something from that one! But they actually seem to have actually gotten worse at identifying later printings.

[comicginger1789]

On 2/14/2023 at 4:13 PM, BCR said:

I care somewhat about the census, but probably even more about the labeling of the collectible being correct. 
 

Secondarily, though, I think the census should have some effort put into it by the community. For instance, when you crack a slab you’re supposed to inform CGC so that they remove it from the census.

The tidier the census, the better the hobby IMO. 

The census has nothing to do with the hobby. If you feel it does, forgive me but you are hobbying wrong. As stated it really tells you nothing beyond how rare an older 40s book may be and how hard a certain book may be to find in 9.6-9.8 grades (example if there are 6000 copies graded but only 40 in those grades). 
 

People often try to say “only x on the census” as some sort of feature. Yeah there are only 24 graded copies of Omega The Unlnown issue 5 on the census because there are only 25 fans of the character (one guy keeps his issues raw). That book is super common! And I see no reason to freak out that the label for that issue doesn’t show “first appearance of El Gato” because again who cares! It’s not that important.

Edited February 15, 2023 by comicginger1789

[Lazyboy]

On 2/14/2023 at 6:46 PM, comicginger1789 said:

The census has nothing to do with the hobby. If you feel it does, forgive me but you are hobbying wrong. As stated it really tells you nothing beyond how rare an older 40s book may be and how hard a certain book may be to find in 9.6-9.8 grades (example if there are 6000 copies graded but only 40 in those grades). 
 

People often try to say “only x on the census” as some sort of feature. Yeah there are only 24 graded copies of Omega The Unlnown issue 5 on the census because there are only 25 fans of the character (one guy keeps his issues raw). That book is super common! And I see no reason to freak out that the label for that issue doesn’t show “first appearance of El Gato” because again who cares! It’s not that important.

Yeah, the CGC Census doesn't matter much, for multiple reasons. But labeling books properly (as what they are, not their stupid "key comments" issue notes) does matter and CGC should be much, much better at that.

[BCR]

On 2/14/2023 at 6:46 PM, comicginger1789 said:

The census has nothing to do with the hobby. If you feel it does, forgive me but you are hobbying wrong. As stated it really tells you nothing beyond how rare an older 40s book may be and how hard a certain book may be to find in 9.6-9.8 grades (example if there are 6000 copies graded but only 40 in those grades). 
 

People often try to say “only x on the census” as some sort of feature. Yeah there are only 24 graded copies of Omega The Unlnown issue 5 on the census because there are only 25 fans of the character (one guy keeps his issues raw). That book is super common! And I see no reason to freak out that the label for that issue doesn’t show “first appearance of El Gato” because again who cares! It’s not that important.

I’m not sure I understand the “hobbying wrong.” There isn’t a wrong way to hobby IMO. The census being as close to correct as possible and the  labeling being exactly correct every time when paying for a service seems reasonable. 

As it pertains to the first appearances of characters from Overwatch, I would only be able to compare them to things like Sonic, Mario, Pokemon, God of War, Last of Us, etc. 

It’s a different line than superhero books, but I’d say they’re no more or less important to the people who care about video game characters. Like everything else, it’s a niche within a specific hobby.

[BCR]

On 2/15/2023 at 5:40 AM, Doomed said:

That's a pipe dream dude. CGC has been in business for 22 years, it ain't happening.

I think most people agree on one piece of the census — the 9.8s are reflective of an (almost) absolute truth. 
 

Every grade beneath that is always going to be subject to potential cracking. 
 

But 1) This isn’t just about the census, it’s about the collectible being correctly labeled. And 2) Overwatch isn’t Spawn #1 or some massive Spiderman book with tens of thousands of graded copies. This specific census is in its infancy, and what I’m trying to do is help (as a customer) to lay the correct foundation. 

Of course it could still be subject to the same issues as other books, but what it should not be subjected to is having #1 first prints and #1 reprints (that have different set covers AND different paper stock covers) filed under the same category. Especially since this is an issue I’ve brought up to them multiple times to the point where I’ve sent in my physical books and paid to ensure that the census and labeling be as close to accurate as is possible. 
 

The grader was given BOTH books in the same submission. The books are WILDLY different. And the grader is filing these two WILDLY different books under the same census tier. Knowingly and purposely doing their job incorrectly. 
 

I am (marginally) satisfied with them creating the “convention” tier for the 1st printing of #2, despite what issues that creates for previously graded books, and despite it assigning the incorrect publication date to the 2nd printing (an egregious error that is easily rectified), but for #1, it’s just an abject and intentional failure on the part of the grader.

The books are literally right now today with CGC. They can right now today fix the issue I’ve previously and am currently pointing to. There’s zero excuse not to fix the issue.

[lostboys]

I always view the census as a rough estimate.

Why would anyone want to grade the book that came with the toy?

 

[BCR]

On 2/15/2023 at 5:40 AM, Doomed said:

That's a pipe dream dude. CGC has been in business for 22 years, it ain't happening.

So WOO HOO? Maybe? 

Just got off the phone with CGC and they’re going to try and stop shipment, pull the books and re-label the reprints as reprints, which will accomplish what I set out to do — create the census tier for the reprints. 

It’s funny because she was concerned that we wouldn’t know which #1 was the reprint, and I told her that it’s the one that was intentionally damaged. Haha 

She laughed and was like “FOUND IT!” 

So I’m really glad I damaged the reprints so that it made this whole thing easier. 
 

So — fingers crossed. At the very least when a book comes in in the future, the grader will be able to see “reprint” as a category and will pause to figure out how the book should be labeled. 

I’ll update once it’s confirmed. Hopefully they were able to stop shipment before it goes out. 
 

When I told her this was officially the nerdiest call I’ve ever made, she said, “Well, you called the right place.” Haha

[Yorick]

On 2/14/2023 at 9:23 AM, BCR said:

Photos are always helpful.

In the one I am quoting above, are these the two versions?  I may be seeing things, but it appears that the one on the right side has had the creator's names moved slightly upward over the background artwork.  The artist signature is now closer horizontally to the typeset names (and also foot of that main cover character).

[BCR]

On 2/15/2023 at 12:40 PM, lostboys said:

I always view the census as a rough estimate.

Why would anyone want to grade the book that came with the toy?

 

So what’s interesting about Overwatch/Blizzard is that they first released their comics digitally. After that, they printed a small amount of convention editions for #1 (McCree first appearance) #2 (Rheindhart first appearance) #7 (Ana and Pharah first appearance, and #13 (Doomfist first appearance). 
 

Years later, they reprinted issues 1, 2 and 7 to go with the backpack hanger toys. But they ALSO did FIRST printings of issue #6 (first appearance of Torbjorn) and #8 (not sure if it has significance off the top of my head). 

So, for instance, the #8 that’s on the census today is JUST the toy comic, as there is no other version of the book. 
 

As to why someone would get the toy comics of 1, 2 and 7 graded? #2 first print has gone for some pretty high prices graded. But really it’s like everything else in pop culture, it all depends on broader outcome and appeal. Overwatch is a massive property, but those gamers are still young, and we haven’t seen life action adaptations of it yet. 
 

Personally, I could see issue #1 and #7 falling into a kind of “Whitman” category, as they were specifically printed for the toy AND are of a lesser cover stock, potentially making them more difficult in high grade. HOWEVER, they’re entirely ubiquitous and the print run is likely in the tens of thousands, unlike the first edition card stock covers. 

So — who knows? Haha 

[BCR]

On 2/15/2023 at 12:48 PM, Yorick said:

Photos are always helpful.

In the one I am quoting above, are these the two versions?  I may be seeing things, but it appears that the one on the right side has had the creator's names moved slightly upward over the background artwork.  The artist signature is now closer horizontally to the typeset names (and also foot of that main cover character).

That’s exactly right.  

The one on the right (the toy pack version) is also a normal cover stock, while the first printing on the left has a card stock cover.

Issue #7 has a similar exchange, going from card stock on the first printing to regular paper on the reprint. 

Overwatch is a massive video game obviously, but if it ever becomes “mainstream” like other properties, this would have caused a huge issue for passive buyers (especially for issues #1 and #7, which are both substantial key books). 
 

The dad picking up a graded #1 for his kid’s birthday or the girlfriend grabbing a slabbed book for her boyfriend likely isn’t going to know the difference by eyeballing it. So I’m just extremely grateful if CGC can get the census to accurately reflect things. At the very least it will give the grader a moment’s pause to investigate what they’re looking at.