Interesting YouTube Video. The Question is, "Does Heritage or CGC bear any responsibility?" 5 5

[Qalyar]

On 3/10/2023 at 1:00 AM, Tony S said:

I could lightly add a grease pencil arrival date to a book. 

IF your point is that it's probably the same book - I agree. If your point it is 100% certain it's the same book - I disagree. 

IF your point is CGC owes someone money -  I 100% disagree.   The original owner had what they paid for. A CGC graded 9.6.  They decided to roll the dice - really high risk undertaking - and it didn't work out.  CGC has their own in house pressing service.  If it had been sent there and came back 9.8 qualified - for a cut out coupon - they would be discussing how much compensation, not if there is compensation. 

If one gambles, one sometimes looses.  No one owes you jack. 

This is a particularly cynical, victim-blaming take.

First, there is zero chance this book was swapped. This isn't IH181 or something like that where there are, price notwithstanding, a virtually unlimited number of interchangeable copies. There are two other copies known in equivalent condition, and I'm pretty sure they're still accounted for. Second, we all agree that CPR, especially on big books, is a gamble. If this book had been damaged while being cracked out, or damaged by pressing, or mutilated in transit, we would be mourning the loss of a GA historical treasure and shaking our heads at the person responsible. But to use the gambling analogy, the problem here isn't that someone gambled with this book and lost; the problem is that they gambled with this book only to discover they were playing at a rigged game 

The reality is that CGC made a mistake. Mistakes will happen, no matter how much we want otherwise  Now, I think CGC makes too many mistakes and doesn't catch as many of the mistakes as they should before they get out the door. In this case, it is 100% on the graders, not QA, because the mistake was not obvious until the book was cracked. But otherwise, this is the same sort of situation as when CGC slabs a reprint book with an original printing label. They failed to perform their fundamental service to their customer. They lacked duty of care in servicing exactly the sort of book that we expect -- and their pricing tiers imply -- will receive their most professional service. And it's not like this should have been easy to miss.

Now, legally speaking, CGC's terms don't usually give much recourse for anything they do. Ethically, that's maybe another story. I'm not sure I think they should make any party here whole necessarily, because CGC is not responsible for catering to the vagaries of market sales even when books need replaced entirely, but this is a pretty unique case. Not unique in that they don't make errors otherwise, but (hopefully) unique because they oughtn't screw up this badly on a Walkthrough-tier book of this profile!

[jsilverjanet]

this thread should be moved to Comics General

[Lazyboy]

On 3/10/2023 at 1:00 AM, Tony S said:

I could lightly add a grease pencil arrival date to a book. 

IF your point is that it's probably the same book - I agree. If your point it is 100% certain it's the same book - I disagree. 

The chances of somebody having a copy of that book in the same grade that is cut and wrapped the same is effectively zero. Then adding identical writing? Yeah, okay.

On 3/10/2023 at 1:00 AM, Tony S said:

IF your point is CGC owes someone money -  I 100% disagree.   The original owner had what they paid for. A CGC graded 9.6. 

No, they had a lie in a worthless case.

On 3/10/2023 at 1:00 AM, Tony S said:

They decided to roll the dice - really high risk undertaking - and it didn't work out.  CGC has their own in house pressing service.  If it had been sent there and came back 9.8 qualified - for a cut out coupon - they would be discussing how much compensation, not if there is compensation. 

If one gambles, one sometimes looses.  No one owes you jack. 

Maybe you should join CGC's marketing team. "Opening our cases is a gamble. You never know what's really in there! Um... wait, I mean you should blindly trust us because we're perfect."

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 3/10/2023 at 8:54 AM, jsilverjanet said:

this thread should be moved to Comics General

Is this the Friday thread?

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 3/10/2023 at 2:00 AM, Tony S said:

IF your point is CGC owes someone money -  I 100% disagree.   The original owner had what they paid for. A CGC graded 9.6. 

No.  They had a green label 9.6 disguised as a blue label 

That’s 100% on CGC

If you buy a blue label HULK 181 & crack it out to find the value stamp is missing?  That’s cool?  Your fault for taking a chance and cracking it out?

[Tony S]

On 3/10/2023 at 7:19 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

No.  They had a green label 9.6 disguised as a blue label 

That’s 100% on CGC

If you buy a blue label HULK 181 & crack it out to find the value stamp is missing?  That’s cool?  Your fault for taking a chance and cracking it out?

No....Not your FAULT. Your responsibility. There is a difference. 

Maybe everyone here should just crack open ALL their CGC graded books to make sure everything is OK. I mean how can you be sure???

The reason I am  not caring about all this is because we have not - to my knowledge - even heard from the "victim".  The person doing the video is a third party that never owned the book. Just an underbidder that noticed what everyone believes is the same book going from blue to green.  For all that anyone here knows, the maker of the video knows,   CGC may have already compensated the owner of the 9.6. Maybe that owner called up CGC after the book came back Green label and said "WTH?" and something was worked out.  I would. I bet everyone reading and commenting here would would make that call. And if they got compensation, not talking about it was probably part of the deal.  

So pardon me while I shrug and don't give a sh... People are assuming there is a problem when maybe the problem was fixed.   If I were inclined to criticize CGC, it would be for giving a book within an  obvious partial erasure a 9.8 (the grease pencil) .  Even 9.6 seems generous. 

[Xenosmilus]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:09 PM, Tony S said:

So pardon me while I shrug and don't give a sh... People are assuming there is a problem when maybe the problem was fixed.   If I were inclined to criticize CGC, it would be for giving a book within an  obvious partial erasure a 9.8 (the grease pencil) .  Even 9.6 seems generous.

I highly doubt that there was a mutual “settlement” for lack of better words. I agree with some of your statements but I would argue it is a big deal. It’s CGC’s primary service, to trust a third party grader. Honesty, the thing that concerns me the most is that it’s a high grade Golden Age book. If this was a modern, I could over look it (but still be a little worried). For high value books / rare books and for what they charge this is unacceptable (if true).

 

Edit: Gambling is one thing. A book at this level is not worth the risk for such a small return (relatively $$$ speaking). 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Xenosmilus

[Tony S]

On 3/11/2023 at 10:18 PM, Xenosmilus said:

I highly doubt that there was a mutual “settlement” for lack of better words. I agree with most of your statements but I would argue it is a big deal. It’s CGC’s primary service, to trust a third party grader. Honesty, the thing that concerns me the most is that it’s a high grade Golden Age book. If this was a modern, I could over look it (but still be a little worried). For high value books / rare books and for what they charge this is unacceptable (if true).

What makes you doubt there was a settlement? I'm aware of several just from submitting for others. I can think of three different submissions where a book went from blue to purple or blue to green. Two of them the owner of the books (crazy, but one person had it happen twice)  told me he called and something was worked out settlement wise. 

Not everyone that submits books to CGC also is a board member that posts up. I would guess that the great majority, the vast majority of people that have submitted books to CGC have never visited or joined this discussion board. And there are boardies that have never submitted a book to CGC. They just like the forum and discussions.

Unless the "victim" comes forward and says they got screwed, I think this is just another Friday thread. A lot of assumptions, lots of drama.  

[Xenosmilus]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:34 PM, Tony S said:

I think this is just another Friday thread.

I posted this Wednesday! . It's concerning either if there was a settlement or wasn't. 

[Tony S]

On 3/11/2023 at 10:37 PM, Xenosmilus said:

I posted this Wednesday! . It's concerning either if there was a settlement or wasn't. 

You don't have to post on Friday to have Friday thread LOL. And I consider starting a "Friday thread" an honor! But I believe we have reached a point where we actually both agree   I concede it is a concern. I'm just a lot less concerned than most - at least most participating in this discussion. 

People grading are still human. Even if - and I accept it likely - it's the same book and a cut coupon was missed  - my view is so what?  If humans are involved you can't make things fool proof.  The bedrock of third party grading and encapsulation is that "the grade is the grade".  The grade is  near universally accepted. Unless mistakes are so common that it undermines that foundational idea, then I don't see the point of obsessing over the rare mistake. Don't crack it open - and it is what it is. The book could have been a CGC 9.6 for eternity - until someone unwisely decided it could be better. WHO expects a 9.8 on a GA book? With a partial erasure on the front cover?? 

Third party grading and encapsulation is like referees in sports. Are they always right? Of course not. Are they necessary? Absolutely. Otherwise it's just adults in silly uniforms arguing balls and strikes, safe and out, catch or no catch. If people cannot accept the occasional mistake, just don't play the game.  Comics are still comics in a bag and board. Keep them that way. 

[Xenosmilus]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:58 PM, Tony S said:

I'm just a lot less concerned than most

To re-stress my initial point, this was a  High Grade Golden Age Book.  I agree, people do make mistakes but... they shouldn't on High grade Golden Age books. There should be higher standards in my view and should be graded by seasoned veteran graders.  Hence why are people paying more for higher value comics?  If that is not the case then why should CGC charge more?

Edited March 12, 2023 by Xenosmilus
grammer

[FrontStands]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:58 PM, Tony S said:

until someone unwisely decided it could be better. WHO expects a 9.8 on a GA book? With a partial erasure on the front cover?? 

It wasn't exactly unwise, it did come back as a 9.8..

[Tony S]

On 3/11/2023 at 11:09 PM, Xenosmilus said:

To re-stress my initial point, this was a  High Grade Golden Age Book.  I agree, people do make mistakes but... they shouldn't on High grade Golden Age books. There should be higher standards in my view and should be graded by seasoned veteran graders.  Hence why are people paying more for higher value comics?  If that is not the case then why should CGC charge more?

Even on high grade GA books, mistakes can still be made. Mistakes can be made by the best.  

As for "why are people paying more for higher value comics?"  Because 3rd party grading and encapsulation is a VALUE ADDED service.  The book is worth more graded than it is raw. And the more it is worth the more value added by 3rd party grading and encapsulation. 

But mistakes can still happen....regardless of experience and how much you pay.  

[Xenosmilus]

On 3/12/2023 at 12:20 AM, Tony S said:

As for "why are people paying more for higher value comics?"  Because 3rd party grading and encapsulation is a VALUE ADDED service.  The book is worth more graded than it is raw. And the more it is worth the more value added by 3rd party grading and encapsulation. 

But mistakes can still happen....regardless of experience and how much you pay.  

Mistakes do happen... Trust me, I make mistakes all the time. I own them though but that's how you establish trust!  Ugh, I go through this at work everyday so it goes beyond CGC for me!People cover up the most stupid things it's frustrating! Just say you f-ed up and move on!

[Dr. Love]

On 3/9/2023 at 8:54 PM, Tony S said:

Most importantly, you have to have balls the size of King Kong's to crack a 1947 CGC 9.6 book hoping for 9.8. That is truly a high risk / high reward gamble. The owner lost this time. 

That would be Steve Ritter, this is part of his business model.  I can see the logic, buy the super clean 9.6 which on another day might get a 9.8, clean it a little, shoot for the 9.8 on a walkthrough and it's maybe a double down the road, worst case in his mind is same grade.  Having a relationship with Matt, he was probably made whole after the CL auction result.  Having the coupon miss multiple times in CGC's small GA grading group is not a good look for that team.  Dealers are big submitters, you don't want a guy like Ritter talking this up to the other guys.

Ritter bought a Cap 4 6.0 on HA in November as well, CPR'ed it into a 5.5, which just washed more or less on CL.  He's done the same for some Promise books and has shown net gains.

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Dr. Love