June 2023 Heritage Signature Auction #7340 4 4

[KirbyCollector]

On 6/1/2023 at 9:33 AM, delekkerste said:

#DefenderOfTheFaith

If this is real, what is the point Gene? Is there a benefit to doing this vs tracking? 

[delekkerste]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:54 AM, KirbyCollector said:

If this is real, what is the point Gene? Is there a benefit to doing this vs tracking? 

I don't want to have to toggle back and forth between My Bids and My Tracked Lots. Would rather see everything in one place.

Edited June 1, 2023 by delekkerste

[Brian Peck]

On HA I track artwork and place bids. I place bids on the pieces I my bid on, the tracking is more to see what a piece ends up at. Especially if I own a similar piece and want to see what the auction market for my pieces could be.

[tth2]

I get what Gene is saying, and I do the same because it's a pain to go back and forth between one's bid page and tracking page.

However, what happens in OA bidding is clearly not mere "tracking bidding", because one can put in a tracking bid by putting in the minimum bid possible. 

Clearly there is price defending/goosing going on because people are putting in bids that are much bigger than what is needed to merely track the book.

[Bronty]

I think lots of different people bid things up early for lots of different reasons.   Many times it’s likely innocent.    Sometimes it’s likely not.    Ultimately the same holds true for any venue . 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Bronty

[Timecapsule85]

100%

[Rick2you2]

On 6/2/2023 at 12:15 AM, tth2 said:

I get what Gene is saying, and I do the same because it's a pain to go back and forth between one's bid page and tracking page.

However, what happens in OA bidding is clearly not mere "tracking bidding", because one can put in a tracking bid by putting in the minimum bid possible. 

Clearly there is price defending/goosing going on because people are putting in bids that are much bigger than what is needed to merely track the book.

I’m not sure what follows was such a good strategy, but sometimes I used to put in a relatively high bid early-on to discourage potential bidders from joining in the fray. But, the effect may have just been to raise the price at the end, so I stopped.

[tth2]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:29 AM, Rick2you2 said:

I’m not sure what follows was such a good strategy, but sometimes I used to put in a relatively high bid early-on to discourage potential bidders from joining in the fray. But, the effect may have just been to raise the price at the end, so I stopped.

Price defenders noticed the same phenomenon, which encouraged them to immediately bid their "red line" price because it not only established the base line price for a piece but prompted bidders to bid more.

[Xatari]

I saw that as well massive price pre auction. 

[Bronty]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:23 PM, szav said:

Dang… either there’s some really loaded Molly Hatchet fans slugging it out in the early rounds, or that Frazetta painting isn’t as boring to most people as it is to my unrefined eyes.

Did the experts here think this was going to break 3.5 mil all along? 10 mil?  Where’s it end.

Maybe it means it’s a big reserve .   One bid to break reserve on auction day Egyptian Queen style?

[Xatari]

That would be a hefty BP to pay if it doesn’t get that last bid to bump it over. 

[J.Sid]

On 6/9/2023 at 2:23 PM, szav said:

Dang… either there’s some really loaded Molly Hatchet fans slugging it out in the early rounds, or that Frazetta painting isn’t as boring to most people as it is to my unrefined eyes.

Did the experts here think this was going to break 3.5 mil all along? 10 mil?  Where’s it end.

Is Egyptian Queen better? Yes, but make no mistake, this painting is an A+ Frazetta Oil.  Don't listen to the few knuckleheads on this board nit-picking the way he painted the legs.

[grapeape]

On 6/2/2023 at 3:36 PM, Bronty said:

I think lots of different people bid things up early for lots of different reasons.   Many times it’s likely innocent.    Sometimes it’s likely not.    Ultimately the same holds true for any venue . 

100% Bronty. We have bridge jumpers in the hobby. They are risk takers. They get a rush from the action. Very much like horse racing when a guy puts $150,000 to show on a Secretariat caliber horse because he can't finish out of the money. The most the guy can make is .10 on every $2 bet. 

Bridge jumper? Because they get high off the action but every once in awhile Man O War doesn't come in the money. The bettor gets cleaned out.

I truly believe we have a few nut jobs out there placing bets on their HA bids. Getting a thrill at pushing it to the limit but hoping not to go beyond the actual red line. What happens when they go too far and "win" an auction. 😱

There's no doubt we have many more price defenders though. In a way they reproduce some normative values to support their own assets, but I think it's detrimental in other important ways.

Ethically.

It may depress a real price, higher or lower, that could pour some real juice enthusiasm into the market. Feeling like you don't have a chance at 80% of lots  is not healthy for the market to gain new dedicated collectors.

When I buy something I'm prepared to accept the ups and downs of the financial value of that art. Worrying about tracking and bidding up an artist or run because I have similar assets in my portfolio sounds exhausting and narcissistic.

If you don't have interest in buying a piece, don't get involved in price defending. Tracking bids are ok but higher than 10% of the perceived and peer recognized FMV smells like manipulation.

Or do and live with yourself.

2 🕷️-cents 

 

 

 

[Bronty]

On 6/10/2023 at 12:07 AM, J.Sid said:

Is Egyptian Queen better? Yes, but make no mistake, this painting is an A+ Frazetta Oil.  Don't listen to the few knuckleheads on this board nit-picking the way he painted the legs.

Ehhh.   I don't think the points of view need to be reconciled.   Its a desirable frazetta.   And the legs are a bit weird.   Both things can be true.

I have to say that even in the last month or whaever my personal opinion of it has gone up a fair bit as high quality pics of the original have been made available.    There's something about it that arrests my attention and not many pieces do that.    In addition my guess is Frank didn't mess around with this one much (at all?) post stroke.    

Edited June 10, 2023 by Bronty

[batman_fan]

On 6/10/2023 at 5:28 AM, Bronty said:

Ehhh.   I don't think the points of view need to be reconciled.   Its a desirable frazetta.   And the legs are a bit weird.   Both things can be true.

I have to say that even in the last month or whaever my personal opinion of it has gone up a fair bit as high quality pics of the original have been made available.    There's something about it that arrests my attention and not many pieces do that.    In addition my guess is Frank didn't mess around with this one much (at all?) post stroke.    

Have you ever considered maybe the barbarian skips "leg day" 

[Michael Browning]

On 6/10/2023 at 12:35 AM, grapeape said:

I truly believe we have a few nut jobs out there placing bets on their HA bids. Getting a thrill at pushing it to the limit but hoping not to go beyond the actual red line. What happens when they go too far and "win" an auction. 😱

I had a collector message me earlier this year. He’d bought at auction a cover he thought I was going after. He kept raising the bids for fun, thinking he was jacking them up on me, but he won it — and I wasn’t even a bidder. So, he came to me asking me to pay his debt to HA - almost $22,000 - and buy it so he didn’t have to. Uh, no.

[alxjhnsn]

On 6/10/2023 at 3:56 PM, Michael Browning said:

I had a collector message me earlier this year. He’d bought at auction a cover he thought I was going after. He kept raising the bids for fun, thinking he was jacking them up on me, but he won it — and I wasn’t even a bidder. So, he came to me asking me to pay his debt to HA - almost $22,000 - and buy it so he didn’t have to. Uh, no.

Wow! That's incredibly stupid. Why would someone do that and think it was a good idea. Sigh...

[KirbyCollector]

On 6/10/2023 at 4:56 PM, Michael Browning said:

He kept raising the bids for fun

WTF... hope he enjoys his lifetime ban from bidding on that site for non-payment

Edited June 10, 2023 by KirbyCollector

[Michael Browning]

On 6/10/2023 at 5:10 PM, KirbyCollector said:

WTF... hope he enjoys his lifetime ban from bidding on that site for non-payment

No, he paid HA for it - or got someone to buy it from him, he said, at a profit. He messaged me and asked me not to tell people he offered it to me at cost because he wanted to make money from it. He kept bugging me to pay HA for it so he didn’t have to and he was so annoying. Yeah, like I was really going to bail out a guy who admittedly ran up the bid against the bidder he believed was me. Nah.

[Xatari]

On 6/10/2023 at 1:56 PM, Michael Browning said:

I had a collector message me earlier this year. He’d bought at auction a cover he thought I was going after. He kept raising the bids for fun, thinking he was jacking them up on me, but he won it — and I wasn’t even a bidder. So, he came to me asking me to pay his debt to HA - almost $22,000 - and buy it so he didn’t have to. Uh, no.

I'm sorry.  I was broke.  What can I say? I thought for sure that was you.