How to determine if manufacturing defects are affecting a grade (or not) ? 1 1

[dbcn]

Curious - I’ve heard that ‘manufacturing defects’ are not counted against a book when grading, but how do you or CGC know what is considered a defect - is there an official source?

I sent in a Scarlet Witch 1 Ivan Tao variant a while back that I thought was an easy 9.8 - no obviously noticeable defects - and it came back a 9.6 - which: fine - pretty close. But then I noticed that on mycomicshop.com, that issue is noted with a printing error:

Copies of this issue contain a printing defect in the form of spine wear

This seems like a likely culprit to the lower grade, so I’m curious if there is an official source for printing / manufacturing defects, and if so, how can you be sure that the defects are not contributing to the grade? (Also seems like if there is an official source, it’d be handy to check for defects before purchasing a raw copy to send into CGC…)

Is it possible that the defects are picked up and made public *after* a book has been submitted? (Like, if I resubmitted, and the defect is now known and disregarded as far as the grading, what’s the probability that the book would bump up to a 9.8?)

[marvelmaniac]

It may be explained in CGC's new grading guide, however, I do not know.

Grading is very subjective, there is no black and white, it is perception on the part of the person viewing, two people can look at the same object and see two different things, unless there were graders notes, you will probably never know why you received a NM+ 9.6 instead of NM/MT 9.8.

According to the grading standards there are differences between NM+ 9.6 and NM/MT 9.8, here are the differences, bindery defects is not one of them.

Bindery Defects...

NM+ 9.6 thru MT 9.9 - Only subtle bindery or printing defects are allowed. No bindery tears are allowed,

NM 9.4 - Subtle bindery/printing defects are allowed. Bindery tears must be less than 1/16" on Silver Age and later books

Subtle Definition - not immediately obvious or comprehensible. difficult to detect or analyze.

The only other differences between NM+ 9.6 and NM/MT 9.8 are...

NM/MT 9.8 - Corners are cut square and sharp.

NM+ 9.6 - One corner may be almost imperceptibly blunted, but still almost sharp and cut square. 

Imperceptibly Definition - unable to be noticed or felt because of being very slight:

not noticeable : not perceptible by a sense or by the mind. 

NM/MT - 9.8 No Indentations are allowed

NM+ 9.6 - Almost imperceptible indentations are permissible, but no creases, bends, or color break.

NM/MT 9.8 - Staples must be original, generally centered and clean with no rust.

NM+ 9.6 - Staples must be original, generally centered, with only the slightest discoloration.

Because the differences are between the two grades is, "Subtle" and "Imperceptible", good luck trying to figure out why you received a NM+ 9.6.

[Axe Elf]

What is the difference between an imperceptible defect and no defect at all?

[LowGradeBronze]

This is a wider ranging subject than it sounds. There are the 'defects' present on many (most?) silver age books, especially Marvels which are not counted, like the gripper holes at the foot of many pages. Then there are the specific defects that are known to exist on large numbers of certain issues, meaning that if you bought a copy, the chances are your copy would have that defect. 

I suspect the OP wants to know how you could 'get a list' of those books. Like the Hulk 168 misprint or FF 110 misprint.

[Topnotchman]

There is no published list of common production defects on individual books.  I’m thinking bindery corner tears, grabber tears, and printer creases. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Only common MFG defects are ignored, but they still keep books from being eligible for Mint/Gem Mint grades. So, while Scarlet Witch #1's spine has a defect that is commonly caused by MFG, Scarlet Witch #2's with the same defect may be rare and held against the grade. That's just how CGC has been doing it as long as I've been collecting.

[The Lions Den]

The 9.6 grade is probably the most common grade given for a book that looks like a 9.8 but has a subtle manufacturing defect. If the defect is more pronounced, the book could be graded even lower...   

[marvelmaniac]

I think I asked this before, does CGC use any type of magnification to look for defects or is just the human eye?

[marvelmaniac]

On 5/19/2023 at 12:06 PM, Axe Elf said:

What is the difference between an imperceptible defect and no defect at all?

We are getting into Philosophy now, this also relates to the question I just asked above.

If it's imperceptible, it's impossible to perceive with any of the senses. The world might be spinning, but it's imperceptible from your couch.

Within the word imperceptible you see the word percept, which means "the object of your perception." Like impossible, the im in imperceptible means it cannot be perceived. Imperceptible is rarely used in the absolute sense of the word — it is usually paired with almost. Horton hears the Who but the tiny sounds of the Whos were almost imperceptible to everyone else.

Imperceptible refers to something that is impossible to perceive or detect. It is often used to describe things that are too small or too subtle to be noticed by the senses. Imperceptible can be used to describe a variety of things, including sounds, smells, and movements.

For example, a sound might be imperceptible if it is too quiet or if it is masked by other sounds. Similarly, a smell might be imperceptible if it is too subtle or if it is masked by other smells. A movement might be imperceptible if it is too small or too slow to be noticed.

Overall, imperceptible refers to something that is too small or too subtle to be noticed by the senses. It is often used to describe things that are difficult or impossible to detect.

[The Lions Den]

On 5/22/2023 at 1:11 PM, marvelmaniac said:

I think I asked this before, does CGC use any type of magnification to look for defects or is just the human eye?

Under most circumstances, graders just use their eyes. However, a jeweler's loupe can be a very useful tool...  

[The Lions Den]

On 5/18/2023 at 12:46 PM, marvelmaniac said:

It may be explained in CGC's new grading guide, however, I do not know.

Grading is very subjective, there is no black and white, it is perception on the part of the person viewing, two people can look at the same object and see two different things, unless there were graders notes, you will probably never know why you received a NM+ 9.6 instead of NM/MT 9.8.

According to the grading standards there are differences between NM+ 9.6 and NM/MT 9.8, here are the differences, bindery defects is not one of them.

Bindery Defects...

NM+ 9.6 thru MT 9.9 - Only subtle bindery or printing defects are allowed. No bindery tears are allowed,

NM 9.4 - Subtle bindery/printing defects are allowed. Bindery tears must be less than 1/16" on Silver Age and later books

Subtle Definition - not immediately obvious or comprehensible. difficult to detect or analyze.

The only other differences between NM+ 9.6 and NM/MT 9.8 are...

NM/MT 9.8 - Corners are cut square and sharp.

NM+ 9.6 - One corner may be almost imperceptibly blunted, but still almost sharp and cut square. 

Imperceptibly Definition - unable to be noticed or felt because of being very slight:

not noticeable : not perceptible by a sense or by the mind. 

NM/MT - 9.8 No Indentations are allowed

NM+ 9.6 - Almost imperceptible indentations are permissible, but no creases, bends, or color break.

NM/MT 9.8 - Staples must be original, generally centered and clean with no rust.

NM+ 9.6 - Staples must be original, generally centered, with only the slightest discoloration.

Because the differences are between the two grades is, "Subtle" and "Imperceptible", good luck trying to figure out why you received a NM+ 9.6.

Let's just be thankful there isn't a 9.7 grade...yet.  

[apocalypse76]

The point that people are making about defects being imperceptible or not is a very important one, especially when you are trying to assess 9.8 grades. Several years ago I feel like minor defects that could be considered imperceptible were recognized in the grading but not assigned a significant weight. The fact that insignificant defects were being "acknowledged" resulted in less 9.8's. Very nice clean looking books were more likely to get 9.6 back then. These days CGC seems to "perceive" a lot fewer defects and 9.8's are a lot more plentiful. 

The point here is that if you want to grade accurately according to how CGC will grade, you need to figure out how defects are graded but also how CGC "perceives" defects. When CGC uses the word "imperceptible" I believe that is their way of saying that even though those defects are physically present they will pretend they are not.

[Axe Elf]

On 5/22/2023 at 12:19 PM, marvelmaniac said:

If it's imperceptible, it's impossible to perceive with any of the senses.

So again, how does a defect that cannot be perceived by any of the senses differ from no defect at all?

Maybe we should consult Antony Flew...

[marvelmaniac]

On 5/22/2023 at 2:14 PM, The Lions Den said:

Under most circumstances, graders just use their eyes. However, a jeweler's loupe can be a very useful tool...  

When I sold my Grandson's Pokémon cards, I had to research grading cards, I then purchased and used a jeweler's loupe with up to 30X magnification and a built in black light to spot fingerprints.

Does the CGC Grading Guide go into any specifics on weather this method is also used by CGC?

Should every collector hoping for a NM/MT 9.8 own one so they can see every minute, "imperceptible"  detail before sending the book for grading?

I am 67, I collect for nostalgia, to relive the fond memories of my childhood, I find it somewhat humorous that we go through all of this for items that were originally sold as "cheap, disposable entertainment".

[The Lions Den]

On 5/23/2023 at 11:54 AM, marvelmaniac said:

When I sold my Grandson's Pokémon cards, I had to research grading cards, I then purchased and used a jeweler's loupe with up to 30X magnification and a built in black light to spot fingerprints.

Does the CGC Grading Guide go into any specifics on weather this method is also used by CGC?

Should every collector hoping for a NM/MT 9.8 own one so they can see every minute, "imperceptible"  detail before sending the book for grading?

I am 67, I collect for nostalgia, to relive the fond memories of my childhood, I find it somewhat humorous that we go through all of this for items that were originally sold as "cheap, disposable entertainment".

I'm in total agreement---that's why I do my best to just enjoy life as much as possible...