How to Lose Commission Requests and Alienate People 5 5

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

Just remember. 

[Rick2you2]

I read it as the artist politely telling you, in a passive-aggressive way, he doesn’t want the assignment, but won’t come out and say it. I would have thanked him for his honesty (Written without sarcasm, even if you would want to, and even if deserved). Even if he did it, odds are you wouldn’t be too happy with the result, and possibly for good reason.

[Michael Browning]

On 5/27/2023 at 9:41 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

It was the way he was asked, as a consolation prize.

He doesn't call the artist "the next best thing", though. He says a COMMISSION is the next best thing to a published page/piece.

[Garf]

I don't think you are ever going to avoid bad experiences no matter what you do, and it certainly is unfortunate if you have had several in a row. I can see your messages weren't offensive, but tone can sometimes be hard to get across in writing. How many times have people written and re-written an unimportant message-board post to get the right tone across? I would have gone with a longer initial message and a large sprinkle of sugar. There's no harm in a bit of flattery to try and get the right tone going, and every once in a while it might just net you what you want where you would otherwise have been turned down. I'm not saying people need to do this when they are requesting a list of available pages, but if you are asking for a commission it will pretty much always enhance your chances of a good outcome.

I personally find it a fun challenge to try and put together a nice inquiry email/message, and after a while you will have collection of them in your sent items that you can plunder when you are feeling less inspired. If you just throw a single sentence out there as your comms did you really care that much about what you were asking after in the first place?

The reply you got was a little bit on the "yikes" side of things, as if they mis-read stuff. I would have been upset if I got a response like that. Likely would have replied saying I meant no offence, then never messaged again. Asides from that last remark the chances are that they were being entirely honest with you about their reasons as to why your request was a bit of a hassle for them, clearly sounds like they are behind on things. You just have to take it all as a learning experience and hope that you can better read the room next time. If you get turned down a lot because an artist is saying they are busy and you still want to pursue things, then there's nothing stopping you asking them when would be a good month to ask again(?). They should have an idea when they will be finishing a run or between things, that way you have the best chance of getting through.

They aren't the only reasons you will ever get turned down, I have had a few negative responses (and a crappy commission) when not playing to an artist's strengths. Some people don't want to work outside of their comfort zone. Maybe if they have been working on Batman for the past 9 months, unless they are an experienced all rounder, ask them for a Batman.

I have also had some amusingly crappy responses when making a crappy request for a something that an artist has clearly drawn one too many times.

There isn't really anything mind blowing to say on this topic, just keep plugging away at it and you will get better results over time if you put effort in. Eventually you will find yourself using your last commission to also get a quick sketch of something created by the next person you want one from ;)

[barneythecantankerous]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:36 AM, Garf said:

I can see your messages weren't offensive, but tone can sometimes be hard to get across in writing. How many times have people written and re-written an unimportant message-board post to get the right tone across? I would have gone with a longer initial message and a large sprinkle of sugar. There's no harm in a bit of flattery to try and get the right tone going, and every once in a while it might just net you what you want where you would otherwise have been turned down. I'm not saying people need to do this when they are requesting a list of available pages, but if you are asking for a commission it will pretty much always enhance your chances of a good outcome.

I personally find it a fun challenge to try and put together a nice inquiry email/message, and after a while you will have collection of them in your sent items that you can plunder when you are feeling less inspired. If you just throw a single sentence out there as your comms did you really care that much about what you were asking after in the first place?

I agree with most of your points and interestingly yes I used to write big upfront messages, have them drafted for a few days, refine them and then eventually hit send. But I would never hear back, get a dry response or be treated as transactional. So over time I've lost interest in doing that (which is on me), especially over the last couple of years where commissions really are treated transactional, prices are crazy and the effort put into most of them is low. But yes I take your point and I think next time it's someone I really want something from I need to put in a bit more legwork.

Thanks for the words of encouragement and thoughtfulness of your response as well, much appreciated!

[John E.]

I didn’t take it as offensive that you compared a commission as “the next best thing” with one-of-a-kind art that is sold out. I do find it ironic though that he had just disparaged himself by saying “I was only the inker on one issue” in a reply before that 
 

After giving this a thought for a day I will say the takeaway here is to never call anything, much less anyone, “the next best thing” even if it’s not meant as an underhanded compliment.

Were you aware of this artist’s reputation before contacting him? To me he sounded like he was already looking for a fight. There are quite a few artists out there that come in default mode salty that I stay away from no matter how much I like their art.

Lastly, I will give the artist credit for edifying me on the effects that digital art-making has had on art supply stores (allegedly), available art supplies, and the apparent obsolescence of nibs. 

 

 

[Rick2you2]

On 5/29/2023 at 5:28 AM, barneythecantankerous said:

I agree with most of your points and interestingly yes I used to write big upfront messages, have them drafted for a few days, refine them and then eventually hit send. But I would never hear back, get a dry response or be treated as transactional. So over time I've lost interest in doing that (which is on me), especially over the last couple of years where commissions really are treated transactional, prices are crazy and the effort put into most of them is low. But yes I take your point and I think next time it's someone I really want something from I need to put in a bit more legwork.

Thanks for the words of encouragement and thoughtfulness of your response as well, much appreciated!

Consider something no more than 3-4 sentences. If the artist has done something you really liked, mention it, particularly if you know he is proud of it or if it is obscure (something only real fans would know). Artists don’t always like drawing the same old thing, so if you want something different, like Hoppy the Marvel Bunny (part of one of mine), mention it. You want his creativity and his design; don’t micromanage (“his left arm should be holding a wand…”).

Remember he is a person. He has his own time constraints; commissions are usually gap fillers between assignments. So recognize it.

I like to send copies of things I have so artists can get a sense of what I like, and maybe stimulate some competitive juices. If they seem negative for some reason consider skipping the artist and move on.

[alxjhnsn]

Here's my "form letter." If I know the artist, I'll prefix it with a personal note.

I've had good results. Many declines, but also many wins.

----
 

Dear <TBD>,

I'm a big fan of Sheldon Mayer's work as editor, writer, and artist. Sheldon was the person who pulled Superman from the reject pile and put him into Action #1. He was DC's earliest and best editor involved in the creation of the JSA and most of its members. Additionally, he wrote and drew the wonderful Scribbly strip - a semi-autobiographical strip about a young cartoonist.

He's probably best known for Sugar and Spike; though, I have to admit that Scribbly is my favorite. The main S&S series went to 98 (in the US). In 1992, DC issued #99 (DC Silver Age Classics Sugar and Spike 99), but there has never been a 100th issue. 

To fill the time as we wait for DC to create and publish S&S 100 and to honor Sheldon Mayer's most famous characters, I've commissioned a few 100th issue covers. I try to find artists with an all-ages feel and have them create the cover. Sometimes I participate a lot (for example, Fred Hembeck's where I had a very specific idea that he nailed) and sometimes very little (Katie Cook where I just asked for her Gronk characters with S&S) and sometimes not at all (Scott Shaw picked the subject, characters, and scene without my participation). 

In general, I shoot for S&S with the artist's own characters or characters I strongly associate with the artist, next I look for seasonal S&S gags since Sheldon did a lot of those, next I just ask for a funny cover. The main thing the artist has to remember is that S&S can't talk to adults, just other babies including animal babies.

My job is to line up the artists - cost, availability, payment terms and such. I then put that information on a list and, my wife, Kathy (copied), buys these for me for my birthday (June), our anniversary (Nov), and Christmas so schedule is not really an issue. She works ahead because she understands that the “day job” comes first for all cartoonists. Regular updates are much more important than a particular date. 

 

Here’s a general description of what I like. 
 

Type:

A “cover” 

 

Size:

Preferred is 11x17.

 

Media:

Pencil or Pen and Ink as you prefer

Color is optional. Some artists are comfortable with it, some are not. I enjoy both. Pricing it as an option is preferred.

 

Trade dress:

Strongly preferred. I do have two pdf files (plain and shaded) that can be used as a tracing guide or to print on the board as desired. Leaving space is fine, too.

 

References:

We do have references - Scott Shaw, Thom Zahler, Katie Cook, Fred Hembeck, Walter and Louise Simonson, Terry and Robyn Moore, and others - if you would like them. 

 

Payment: 

 

We are flexible, but we prefer something up front with progress payments. Payment methods are flexible as well.

 

Schedule: 

We are open. Kathy understands artist’s schedules and the need to handle publisher work first so she works in advance. She buys for delivery in June (birthday), November (anniversary), and December (Christmas). So, hitting any of those is great.

Progress notes are more important than schedule.

 

Preliminary Drawings: 

If you have preliminary drawings for the final piece, we’d love to have those. 

 

Cover Subject: 

 

I don't have any strong rules other than suitable for kids and true to the spirit of the book. There are a couple of S&S universe rules:

1. The kids can talk only to other babies - baby people and baby animals are both good.
2. Their friend Bernie the Brain invents all kinds of things. He's a super genius who taught himself baby talk. He makes any kind of adventure possible, but he's not the star of the book. 
3. While not always true, we generally saw the parents only as legs.

Most commonly, I've worked with artists who have their own IP and the cover has been a cross-over of sorts. Scott Shaw chose to use the Muppet Babies since he won Emmys with them. 

You are free to make suggestions though an obvious choice from you would be <TBD>. That said, Sheldon often did seasonal covers and holiday covers so those would work just as well. I really want it to be something you would enjoy doing. I find that I get better work from someone that enjoys it.

Anyway, if you are interested in doing something different feel free to suggest it. 

You can see all of Sheldon’s Sugar and Spike covers here and the Internet is full of reference material including covers, one page stories, and paper dolls in my own Comic Art Fans gallery on these links.

I’ve done this a few times so far. Artists involved in order of reception and L->R, T->B:

• Fred Hembeck, Katie Cook, Chris Giarrusso, Steve Conley, 
• Scott  Shaw, Matthew Childers,Pug Grumble, Dave Aikins, 
• Charles Paul Wilson, IIIRamona Fradon, Bill Morrison, Jeffrey Moy, 
• Ben Bender, Ken Penders, Sergio Aragones, Walt Simonson, 
• Joe Staton, James Silvani

 

Here are the ones that I have as examples (click here for a better view):

 

 

Are you interested? What would it cost?

 

If you have any questions or concerns, please let me know.

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by alxjhnsn

[Hekla]

On 5/29/2023 at 7:36 PM, Garf said:

 

I personally find it a fun challenge to try and put together a nice inquiry email/message

That doesn't sound fun at all! 

[Ryan.]

On 5/29/2023 at 2:37 PM, Rick2you2 said:

He has his own time constraints; commissions are usually gap fillers between assignments. So recognize it.

Eventually those assignments and commission requests go away, and he'll have plenty of time to reflect on how he responded to the people looking to give him money for his art.

[Will_K]

On 5/29/2023 at 7:28 PM, Ryan. said:

Eventually those assignments and commission requests go away, and he'll have plenty of time to reflect on how he responded to the people looking to give him money for his art.

The sign reads: Will work for steel nibs

[Michael Browning]

On 5/29/2023 at 2:37 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Consider something no more than 3-4 sentences. If the artist has done something you really liked, mention it, particularly if you know he is proud of it or if it is obscure (something only real fans would know). Artists don’t always like drawing the same old thing, so if you want something different, like Hoppy the Marvel Bunny (part of one of mine), mention it. You want his creativity and his design; don’t micromanage (“his left arm should be holding a wand…”).

I'm with you on everything except not giving direction. When I have an idea for a commission, it's that idea I want drawn. The only commission where I said "do whatever you want" was the Steranko Captain America commission he drew for me that eventually became a published Captain America 75th anniversary variant cover.

[BitterOldMan]

This thread is reminding me of the scene in “Chasing Amy”….

Edited May 30, 2023 by BitterOldMan
Took out naughty word.

[The Voord]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:36 AM, Garf said:

I can see your messages weren't offensive, but tone can sometimes be hard to get across in writing.  . . . I would have gone with a longer initial message and a large sprinkle of sugar. There's no harm in a bit of flattery to try and get the right tone going, and every once in a while it might just net you what you want where you would otherwise have been turned down. I'm not saying people need to do this when they are requesting a list of available pages, but if you are asking for a commission it will pretty much always enhance your chances of a good outcome.

 

That's a well thought-out response, Garf, and presents a key element missing from Barney's communications (see emboldened text in the above quote extract).

Most creative-types like to have their egos stroked . . . and I'm not seeing any appreciation for the artist's craft in any of  Barney's messages to this unidentified artist. 

Instead, he says:

"Most artists have gotten rid of their pages"

Rubbish is something you get rid off . . . "released to the marketplace" might have been a better, less harsh, choice of words.

Also, because Barney states he's had no luck in tracking down any published work from the series . . . it suggests to me that the artist in question was down the list of creators to contact who worked on the book (hardly first choice) . . . which is perhaps why the artist became irritated in later communications (everything seemed to be going okay until Barney's "got rid" comment, and things then begin to quickly sour).  

Putting myself in the artist's shoes (I'm trying to look at this from both sides), I'd be asking myself:

"Does this guy (Barney) actually like my work . . . he doesn't say so . . . who else has he contacted before me?"

As to the business of artist's materials . . . he sounds like he relies on tried and trusted materials he's used for a long time.  Product lines do get discontinued . . . and new (replacement)  materials would need to be tested by him to see what works best.

Another thing people here might want to consider is that commissions (those that require time and effort) are usually intended for an audience of one (some commissions do end up as published pieces later on, as was the case with Mike B's Steranko piece . . . but I would imagine these are far and few between?).  As an artist, what would you prefer . . . creating work that's seen and enjoyed by thousands . . . or divert your time and effort for the benefit of just one single person?  I know where my priorities would lie.  Sure, when the work later dries up, commissions can be a good source of income . . . but the mysterious artist sounds like he's very busy with regular work being fed to him.

Been an interesting thread to follow, and it's always good to compare notes with other takes on the subject.  I'm sure Barney is a decent guy, and I wish him luck in future commission requests.  Hopefully, he will take something useful away from all this.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by The Voord

[Michael Browning]

On 5/30/2023 at 4:59 AM, The Voord said:

That's a well thought-out response, Garf, and presents a key element missing from Barney's communications (see emboldened text in the above quote extract).

Most creative-types like to have their egos stroked . . . and I'm not seeing any appreciation for the artist's craft in any of  Barney's messages to this unidentified artist. 

Instead, he says:

"Most artists have gotten rid of their pages"

Rubbish is something you get rid off . . . "released to the marketplace" might have been a better, less harsh, choice of words.

Also, because Barney states he's had no luck in tracking down any published work from the series . . . it suggests to me that the artist in question was down the list of creators to contact who worked on the book (hardly first choice) . . . which is, perhaps, why the artist became irritated in later communications (everything seemed to be going okay until Barney's "got rid" comment, and things then begin to quickly sour).  

Putting myself in the artist's shoes (I'm trying to look at this from both sides), I'd be asking myself:

"Does this guy (Barney) actually like my work . . . he doesn't say so . . . who else has he contacted before me?"

As to the business of artist's materials . . . he sounds like he relies on tried and trusted materials he's used for a long time.  Product lines do get discontinued . . . and new (replacement)  materials would need to be tested by him to see what works best.

Another thing people here might want to consider is that commissions (those that require time and effort) are usually intended for an audience of one (some commissions do end up as published pieces later on, as was the case with Mike B's Steranko piece . . . but I would imagine these a far and few between?).  As an artist, what would you prefer . . . creating work that's seen and enjoyed by thousands . . . or divert your time and effort for the benefit of just one single person?  I know where my priorities would lie.  Sure, when the work later dries up, commissions can be a good source of income . . . but the mysterious artist sounds like he's very busy with regular work being fed to him.

Been an interesting thread to follow, and it's always good to compare notes with other takes on the subject.  I'm sure Barney is a decent guy, and I wish him luck in future commission requests.

 

I’ve only had two of my 100 commissions end up as a cover — the Steranko Cap and a Luke McDonnell/Bill Wray JLA Detroit on an issue of Back Issue magazine. The McDonnell/Wray cover was thought up entirely by me and pitched to Back Issue editor Michael Eury BEFORE it was drawn, though. I then paid Luke and Bill to draw it after Michael gave it his approval. Michael liked the idea so much that he published it and my article about the JLA Detroit because the cover feature.

[Michael Browning]

Here are the two PUBLISHED covers that started off as commissions. 

[Rick2you2]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:17 PM, Michael Browning said:

I'm with you on everything except not giving direction. When I have an idea for a commission, it's that idea I want drawn. The only commission where I said "do whatever you want" was the Steranko Captain America commission he drew for me that eventually became a published Captain America 75th anniversary variant cover.

Directions are fine; I met that literally. One artist complained about someone who commissioned him and told him where he wanted the artist to locate the character’s arms. 

[Bronty]

On 5/30/2023 at 4:59 AM, The Voord said:

That's a well thought-out response, Garf, and presents a key element missing from Barney's communications (see emboldened text in the above quote extract).

Most creative-types like to have their egos stroked . . . and I'm not seeing any appreciation for the artist's craft in any of  Barney's messages to this unidentified artist. 

Instead, he says:

"Most artists have gotten rid of their pages"

Rubbish is something you get rid off . . . "released to the marketplace" might have been a better, less harsh, choice of words.

Also, because Barney states he's had no luck in tracking down any published work from the series . . . it suggests to me that the artist in question was down the list of creators to contact who worked on the book (hardly first choice) . . . which is perhaps why the artist became irritated in later communications (everything seemed to be going okay until Barney's "got rid" comment, and things then begin to quickly sour).  

Putting myself in the artist's shoes (I'm trying to look at this from both sides), I'd be asking myself:

"Does this guy (Barney) actually like my work . . . he doesn't say so . . . who else has he contacted before me?"

As to the business of artist's materials . . . he sounds like he relies on tried and trusted materials he's used for a long time.  Product lines do get discontinued . . . and new (replacement)  materials would need to be tested by him to see what works best.

Another thing people here might want to consider is that commissions (those that require time and effort) are usually intended for an audience of one (some commissions do end up as published pieces later on, as was the case with Mike B's Steranko piece . . . but I would imagine these are far and few between?).  As an artist, what would you prefer . . . creating work that's seen and enjoyed by thousands . . . or divert your time and effort for the benefit of just one single person?  I know where my priorities would lie.  Sure, when the work later dries up, commissions can be a good source of income . . . but the mysterious artist sounds like he's very busy with regular work being fed to him.

Been an interesting thread to follow, and it's always good to compare notes with other takes on the subject.  I'm sure Barney is a decent guy, and I wish him luck in future commission requests.  Hopefully, he will take something useful away from all this.

 

I agree - the artist saying “I was only the inker” is in response to being asked to recreate artwork that he doesn’t even really identify as being his.    He inked it; he views the request as being about the title or character and not about his work.

The artist didn’t handle his response well and TBH I don’t think the OP handled their inquiry well either.     As Garf said, however, all this goes away with a little more sugar.    The request was transactional rather than personal and while some people don’t mind that, some do. 

[Rick2you2]

On 5/29/2023 at 4:30 PM, alxjhnsn said:

Here's my "form letter." If I know the artist, I'll prefix it with a personal note.

I've had good results. Many declines, but also many wins.

----
 

Dear <TBD>,

I'm a big fan of Sheldon Mayer's work as editor, writer, and artist. Sheldon was the person who pulled Superman from the reject pile and put him into Action #1. He was DC's earliest and best editor involved in the creation of the JSA and most of its members. Additionally, he wrote and drew the wonderful Scribbly strip - a semi-autobiographical strip about a young cartoonist.

He's probably best known for Sugar and Spike; though, I have to admit that Scribbly is my favorite. The main S&S series went to 98 (in the US). In 1992, DC issued #99 (DC Silver Age Classics Sugar and Spike 99), but there has never been a 100th issue. 

To fill the time as we wait for DC to create and publish S&S 100 and to honor Sheldon Mayer's most famous characters, I've commissioned a few 100th issue covers. I try to find artists with an all-ages feel and have them create the cover. Sometimes I participate a lot (for example, Fred Hembeck's where I had a very specific idea that he nailed) and sometimes very little (Katie Cook where I just asked for her Gronk characters with S&S) and sometimes not at all (Scott Shaw picked the subject, characters, and scene without my participation). 

In general, I shoot for S&S with the artist's own characters or characters I strongly associate with the artist, next I look for seasonal S&S gags since Sheldon did a lot of those, next I just ask for a funny cover. The main thing the artist has to remember is that S&S can't talk to adults, just other babies including animal babies.

My job is to line up the artists - cost, availability, payment terms and such. I then put that information on a list and, my wife, Kathy (copied), buys these for me for my birthday (June), our anniversary (Nov), and Christmas so schedule is not really an issue. She works ahead because she understands that the “day job” comes first for all cartoonists. Regular updates are much more important than a particular date. 

 

Here’s a general description of what I like. 
 

Type:

A “cover” 

 

Size:

Preferred is 11x17.

 

Media:

Pencil or Pen and Ink as you prefer

Color is optional. Some artists are comfortable with it, some are not. I enjoy both. Pricing it as an option is preferred.

 

Trade dress:

Strongly preferred. I do have two pdf files (plain and shaded) that can be used as a tracing guide or to print on the board as desired. Leaving space is fine, too.

 

References:

We do have references - Scott Shaw, Thom Zahler, Katie Cook, Fred Hembeck, Walter and Louise Simonson, Terry and Robyn Moore, and others - if you would like them. 

 

Payment: 

 

We are flexible, but we prefer something up front with progress payments. Payment methods are flexible as well.

 

Schedule: 

We are open. Kathy understands artist’s schedules and the need to handle publisher work first so she works in advance. She buys for delivery in June (birthday), November (anniversary), and December (Christmas). So, hitting any of those is great.

Progress notes are more important than schedule.

 

Preliminary Drawings: 

If you have preliminary drawings for the final piece, we’d love to have those. 

 

Cover Subject: 

 

I don't have any strong rules other than suitable for kids and true to the spirit of the book. There are a couple of S&S universe rules:

1. The kids can talk only to other babies - baby people and baby animals are both good.
2. Their friend Bernie the Brain invents all kinds of things. He's a super genius who taught himself baby talk. He makes any kind of adventure possible, but he's not the star of the book. 
3. While not always true, we generally saw the parents only as legs.

Most commonly, I've worked with artists who have their own IP and the cover has been a cross-over of sorts. Scott Shaw chose to use the Muppet Babies since he won Emmys with them. 

You are free to make suggestions though an obvious choice from you would be <TBD>. That said, Sheldon often did seasonal covers and holiday covers so those would work just as well. I really want it to be something you would enjoy doing. I find that I get better work from someone that enjoys it.

Anyway, if you are interested in doing something different feel free to suggest it. 

You can see all of Sheldon’s Sugar and Spike covers here and the Internet is full of reference material including covers, one page stories, and paper dolls in my own Comic Art Fans gallery on these links.

I’ve done this a few times so far. Artists involved in order of reception and L->R, T->B:

• Fred Hembeck, Katie Cook, Chris Giarrusso, Steve Conley, 
• Scott  Shaw, Matthew Childers,Pug Grumble, Dave Aikins, 
• Charles Paul Wilson, IIIRamona Fradon, Bill Morrison, Jeffrey Moy, 
• Ben Bender, Ken Penders, Sergio Aragones, Walt Simonson, 
• Joe Staton, James Silvani

 

Here are the ones that I have as examples (click here for a better view):

 

 

Are you interested? What would it cost?

 

If you have any questions or concerns, please let me know.

 

Alex,

Spend a little time writing specifications, eh? Now all you need is to divide it up into General, Products and Execution, and you can submit it the CSI.

Rick

[Will_K]

On 5/30/2023 at 4:59 AM, The Voord said:

(everything seemed to be going okay until Barney's "got rid" comment, and things then begin to quickly sour)

Interesting point, "rid" maybe a poor word choice but OP is clearly a fan, otherwise he wouldn't be asking.

On 5/30/2023 at 7:43 AM, Bronty said:

he views the request as being about the title or character and not about his work.

It's kind of hard to separate a comic artist's work from the title/character that the artist worked on.  At the other end of the spectrum, only commission a topic that the artist has never worked on ?