Jack Kirby's Son Comments On New Stan Lee Documentary 3 3

[Beastfeast]

This thread has big old school CGC board energy going on. I like it. 

[lordbyroncomics]

On 6/30/2023 at 10:26 AM, jimjum12 said:

It's a good thing Weisinger didn't get wind of all that copyright infringement Jack was doing ... I heard he liked tossing freelancers off of rooftops. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

jimbo, how can you continue to be so consistently wrong yet continue to pepper your comments with things like "ignorance is bliss" and "you can choose to be wrong, it's a free country"- you can't make this stuff up! (I know you do know and are just playing a character, though) 

The thing you are misremembering is that an artist threatened to toss Weisinger off a rooftop for not giving him his check! I realize there's decades and decades of comics lore in that ol' brain of yours, so some mix ups are bound to happen here and there. Glad I can clear it up for ya.

-LB (a friend of jimjum12) 

[lordbyroncomics]

On 6/30/2023 at 5:42 PM, Beastfeast said:

This thread has big old school CGC board energy going on. I like it. 

Wait until some of us continue this subject in person. You're gonna like hearing about it even more.

[lordbyroncomics]

On 6/30/2023 at 1:24 PM, shadroch said:

Stan Lee is crucified for supposedly claiming more credit than he deserves for some comics.  Kirby claimed to have been in Normandy in June of 1944, while in reality, he arrived in late August.   Strange how some people prioritize things.

This is absolutely disgusting. Par for the course from a bitter and swarmy old instigator who is old enough to know better. I know you want to get a rise out of people Bill and, how did you put it? When people can't argue law or facts they attack the person?

So you just attacked a combat veteran who literally killed Nazis. Congrats.

You've already been corrected and exposed for purposely presenting things out of context. So I'll say this. I'm a proud member of the DVNF which is the Disabled Veterans National Foundation. I volunteer every month at the Veteran's Hospital. One thing that goes is, regardless of one's opinion on military and war you do not insult people that fought for this country. 

And if you really want to keep comparing your idol- Stan Lee bragged and laughed in an interview about how he stayed in NJ during the War and "used the Sergeant's car every weekend" to take girls out. He bragged and laughed about a mail scheme he developed to keep getting -script assignments from Timely. You can look these things up, I didn't invent them.

While Stan Lee is in NJ taking someone's car every weekend to go to nightclubs, Jack Kirby is risking his life and developing frostbite in his feet. Strange what you prioritize. 

What people here are gonna defend warping a combat veteran's story? Forget that he's Kirby. If it were Vince Colletta or someone else less respected, I'd say the same thing. Sick s*#t and uncalled for. I hope we're never at the same convention.

 

[shadroch]

If Kirby couldn't remember when he got to Normandy, I don't have any reason to believe any of his memories.  

Edited July 1, 2023 by shadroch

[jdandns]

I finally saw the documentary, and it was pretty good. I have great respect for what Lee, Kirby, and Ditko did. Most of my favorite Marvel Comics stories aren't from their era, but the ones I truly love couldn't have existed with those masterful blueprints.

I can't speak to the money aspect, as to whose heirs deserve what, or even what credit byline should accompany which character, but no serious discussion of the creation of the Marvel Universe is missing any of those names and several others besides.   

[lordbyroncomics]

On 6/30/2023 at 10:05 AM, Aman619 said:

At this point I just want to see the Rolls Royce collection!  Sheesh 

All this thread shows me is that no one here has ever read a book or magazine or an interview concerning this stuff. Wow! No wonder Twomorrows barely sells anything. But I digress...

Here's a sample and a quote. I should stress here that I, personally, do not begrudge or take it as a bad sign of character if Stan or anyone else drives a Rolls Royce. I'm just providing this for context since apparently the guys chiming in all the time have never done any research and evidently still can't!

If the context of bring up a Rolls Royce is just about Stan's salary versus anyone elses in the Sixties, it's worth noting there was a charming letter sent to the very pro-Stan Alter Ego magazine from an adult fan who told the story of him and his friends learning that Stan lived in Long Island as they did and then they looked up his address via the phone book and ventured, uninvited, to Stan's house. Per their telling, Stan had a Butler (!) at this time, who let them in. (It's worth adding that Stan was very friendly and awesome in this anecdote, inviting them back to the pool where he asked them about their favorite characters and input) The letter ended with the guy saying that when their parents found out they did this, they were horrified and wrote Stan a letter apologizing and inviting him and his family to their house in return.   Unsure if he ever took them up on it! I like that story but I remember thinking, wow a Butler in 1965..?

Here's a quote from Chuck Rozanski, talking about 1980:

"While Stan helping me out is a story in and of itself, what happened after he arrived is far cooler. First of all, I had purchased a brand new Chevrolet Chevette just prior to Stan's arrival, so that was my obvious choice for the vehicle in which to drive him around to the four signings we had scheduled. On an exceptionally warm day I picked up Stan at his hotel in Boulder, and hit the highway for Denver. As we drove along on that sweltering heat, I noticed that Stan was sweating profusely in his impeccably tailored suit, but had yet to roll down his window. He finally turned to me and said "Chuck, I don't think that your air conditioning is working..." I then had to tell him that my car didn't HAVE air conditioning, which caused a look of complete disbelief in his eyes. He told me then, that as a driver exclusively of Rolls Royces for many years, that he had no idea that they still made cars without AC."

[lordbyroncomics]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:16 PM, shadroch said:

If Kirby couldn't remember when he got to Normandy, I don't have any reason to believe any of his memories.  

Who are you to need to believe Kirby or not? You're the same person who said you "can't forgive" Kirby for 70s' Captain America. You're a collector, you're in no position to need "a reason" to believe someone who has United States documentation of their service and injuries incurred in the line of duty.

Seriously Billsy- let's never run into each other.

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/21/2023 at 10:30 PM, october said:

The middle road is usually closest to the truth. Stan was clearly a fame and credit hog, but he also didn't do nothing. Apologists are flat-out ignoring reality, while the haters gloss over the fact that dialogue he often created was a key element in what set Marvel apart. 

Stan Lee was a copy-editor and proofreader.

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:10 AM, lordbyroncomics said:

This. There's literally no Marvel without Kirby going back. As much as I genuinely like Patsy Walker, etc., Marvel would have continued with genre stuff if Kirby wasn't there to rehash his Challengers of the Unknown, Thor, mutation ideas that he had been doing throughout the fifties. 

Kirby generated the bulk of all of the concepts, characters, storytelling. Try looking at the Strange Tales starring the Torch when Lee relied on MR. Ayers to generate and plot things. Why are the stories so vastly different than the stories that Jack is drawing? There you are.

 

Never forget: one guy goes off to create the FOURTH WORLD. One guy goes off to "create" NHL Hockey Heroes that literally bankrupted a company.

Jim Shooter said in his Comic Book Historians interview that he plotted one of Stan's 60s' SILVER SURFER issues. 

Roy Thomas said he ghost wrote Stan's Spider-Man strip for over twenty years- Salicrup ghost wrote it before that- Shooter ghost wrote it before that.

Alan Kupperberg said Danny Fingeroth ghost wrote Ravage 2099.

Ed Piskor said someone ghost wrote all of Stan Lee's introductions to your beloved Marvel Masterworks collections. Sorry frantic ones.

 

I include all that just to stress- that if someone is the "Shakespeare" of comics and a natural idea generator, a natural story man, a CREATOR...

... why did he need so much help? 

In fairness, Stan Lee said that the Marvel Method was "developed" because it "saved him time".  Stan needed that time for jetting around the country to speak at college campuses about how creative he was.

The Marvel Method didn't save much time for Jack Kirby, however, who spent 14+ hours per day plotting, writing and illustrating up to 6 titles per month, and almost all of the covers.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Nick Furious]

Memories change with time.  And for people in the business of self-promotion, the change tends to always be in one direction.  Typically, great salesmen are their own best customers, and they tend to be world-class rationalizers.  The memories may not always start out as completely honest memories.  And they may be further solidified by the statements of their fans, supporters and hired help.  But I think with the passage of time they end up as honest memories, even if not completely true.  

[Prince Namor]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:23 PM, lordbyroncomics said:

 you're in no position to need "a reason" to believe someone who has United States documentation of their service and injuries incurred in the line of duty.

Yet he defends without question one of the biggest liars in history. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:45 AM, lordbyroncomics said:

"Showing a hard-core Marvel fan evidence that Stan Lee lied, cheated, and stole gets you about as far as if you were to show an Evangelical evidence that Christ ever existed. They'll either be furious with you or cheerfully ignore you, but they won't believe you."

https://www.vulture.com/2023/06/disney-s-stan-lee-documentary-perpetuates-a-myth.html

So true, I fight both of those battles.

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/24/2023 at 2:51 AM, Crimebuster said:

While I was watching this documentary, I told my wife, "the worst thing about this is the fact that now I'm going to have to listen to a bunch of 60 year old fanboys continue the same incredibly tedious Stan vs. Jack argument they've been having for the last half century."

Right on, I'm 60!

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/28/2023 at 4:21 AM, MrBedrock said:

This is not true. Without Kirby Marvel might have been horrible, but it would have been around. Without Lee it wouldn't have been around.

Seeing as how Kirby pitched the idea of a superhero revival to Lee and Goodman, Marvel would have been ALL Millie the Model ALL the time through the '60s without Kirby.

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/24/2023 at 3:12 AM, lostboys said:

 

Im only 45 years old but to me Stan Lee is Marvel Comics much like Hugh Hefner is Playboy Magazine.

 

I enjoyed reading this thread, very educational.

 

 

Well, Stan certainly did the same thing to his staff as Hefner did to his.

[shadroch]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:57 PM, comicwiz said:

Kirby likened to the Brian Williams' of the world. 

 

 

 

This is exactly what Kirby claimed:

"I was in the combat infantry. I went to Liverpool first. Then they shipped us to Southampton, which is the port of embarkation for Normandy. I got to Normandy 10 days after the invasion."

Ten days after the invasion would be June 15/16th.  He got there in mid to late August.

[Nick Furious]

On 6/30/2023 at 10:48 PM, Steven Valdez said:

So true, I fight both of those battles.

You show evangelicals evidence that Christ existed?  Why would that upset them?  

[Steven Valdez]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:16 AM, shadroch said:

If Kirby couldn't remember when he got to Normandy, I don't have any reason to believe any of his memories.  

His memories of hand-to-hand combat with Nazis vs his memories of comic book minutiae, you mean?

Edited July 1, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Steven Valdez]

On 7/1/2023 at 3:07 PM, Nick Furious said:

You show evangelicals evidence that Christ existed?  Why would that upset them?  

Pretty sure 'ever' was a typo for 'never', going by the context.