Jack Kirby's Son Comments On New Stan Lee Documentary 3 3

[lordbyroncomics]

"I'd say to the artists, look, you know how the stories go"

 

Yep.

[lordbyroncomics]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:08 AM, Zonker said:

I'm sorry, I can't help you further.  I was asked if Stan chatted up creators by phone, so I found an example where he did so with Don Heck. I was asked to provide some quotes about Stan/Roy's justification for the Marvel Method, so I did so. 

I'm not at all surprised that the quotes are not found to be credible, so we'll have to just leave it there.  

Literally calling an artist on the phone- which I am positive Stan Lee did thousands of times over four decades- is decidedly not what you meant. You meant the narrative of Stan calling up artists to give them a PLOT to work from. The latter is what I am saying didn't happen. But please, see yourself out. You keep offering things when you don't even know the points of reference. 

[Zonker]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:11 AM, lordbyroncomics said:

Literally calling an artist on the phone- which I am positive Stan Lee did thousands of times over four decades- is decidedly not what you meant. You meant the narrative of Stan calling up artists to give them a PLOT to work from. The latter is what I am saying didn't happen. But please, see yourself out. You keep offering things when you don't even know the points of reference. 

Not sure why you think you're in a better position to tell me what I meant than I am?  

What I said was.

Quote

So, he chats them up over the phone and/or flips them a few sentences to get started

which seems consistent with the minimal input Don Heck says he received from Stan over the phone to get started with the first Iron Man story.  

[lordbyroncomics]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:17 AM, Zonker said:

Not sure why you think you're in a better position to tell me what I meant than I am?  

What I said was.

which seems consistent with the minimal input Don Heck says he received from Stan over the phone to get started with the first Iron Man story.  

Solely because you entered the discussion with 'I think what they meant' etc.- speculative more than having the actual information next to you which would validate or invalidate what you were offering. I don't mean it personally, you're obviously very intelligent. I think in conversations like this we need to have some point of reference to where we read it or heard it and what was said. Obviously you're free to ignore me but it won't change me being honest with you. I'd tell my best friends the same thing if they were wading into such a thread and weren't precise about what they knew. 

[jimjum12]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:08 AM, Zonker said:

I'm not at all surprised that the quotes are not found to be credible, so we'll have to just leave it there.  

... we do have to be careful picking and choosing quotes that ONLY SUPPORT OUR NARRATIVE. It's especially troublesome if the actual truth lies between two polar extremes. I see a lot of this selective sampling with the Stan Bashers. There's almost always a couple of different ways to look at things, for example, the Jimmy Olsen vampire .... to me, that is just another example of some of the half baked spoon that Jack was producing by himself at DC. I didn't even bother buying that junk, but Marvel turned their "Vampire" into something that I did buy. Hey, I can't blame Jack for his anger... the well was running dry and he was in danger of becoming just another hack. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited July 1, 2023 by jimjum12

[Nick Furious]

On 7/1/2023 at 9:07 AM, Steven Valdez said:

"In the early days, I would write a complete --script. Later, I WAS TOO BUSY to write stories for all the artists. Spider-Man, Iron Man, Daredevil, the Avengers — I COULDN'T KEEP UP. I’d say to the artists, look, you know how the stories go. I’d like Dr. Doom to kidnap the heroine, and the hero has to go into Latveria. Here’s the ending, the high points. The artist would go draw it, and then I’d get the pencil pages and put in the dialogue and the sound-effect balloons."

This quote indicates that Stan Lee did in fact call up the writers with plots and high points...and left it to them to fill in the details of the story. Even saying "look, you know how the stories go" would indicate that in filling in the details they were working from his creative direction.  That's why they would know how the stories go, because they knew what he wanted to deliver to the audience.  

[lordbyroncomics]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:56 AM, jimjum12 said:

... we do have to be careful picking and choosing quotes that ONLY SUPPORT OUR NARRATIVE. It's especially troublesome if the actual truth lies between two polar extremes. I see a lot of this selective sampling with the Stan Bashers. There's almost always a couple of different ways to look at things, for example, the Jimmy Olsen vampire .... to me, that is just another example of some of the half baked spoon that Jack was producing by himself at DC. I didn't even bother buying that junk, but Marvel turned their "Vampire" into something that I did. Hey, I can't blame Jack for his anger... the well was running dry and he was in danger of becoming just another hack. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

But that's SUBJECTIVE and a matter of your OPINION. 

Who are the Stan Bashers, dare I ask? Could I bash a guy by saying he didn't do all the things he's credited for? Does this make you a Kirby basher? After all, Stan's well ran WAY dry as soon as Kirby stopped giving him stories. Is it bashing to point out facts? One guy stopped creating. Does pointing that out constitute "bashing"?

[jimjum12]

On 7/1/2023 at 11:06 AM, lordbyroncomics said:

But that's SUBJECTIVE and a matter of your OPINION. 

Who are the Stan Bashers, dare I ask? Could I bash a guy by saying he didn't do all the things he's credited for? Does this make you a Kirby basher? After all, Stan's well ran WAY dry as soon as Kirby stopped giving him stories. Is it bashing to point out facts? One guy stopped creating. Does pointing that out constitute "bashing"?

I was talking about the selective bias involved in choosing whose quotes are lies and who's aren't;and if it's not Stan bashing what is it ? His praise is certainly not being shouted from the rooftops.  Why would quotes from artists, who could very well be angling for a nice slice of that "hush money" that Kirby got not be suspect? GOD BLESS ....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

... no I wasn't on the debate team, I didn't want to send those other kids home crying every day 

Edited July 2, 2023 by jimjum12

[lordbyroncomics]

On 7/1/2023 at 11:15 AM, jimjum12 said:

I was talking about the selective bias involved in choosing who's quotes are lies and who's aren't ... and if it's not Stan bashing what is it ? His praise is certainly not being shouted from the rooftops.  Why would quotes from artists who could very well be angling for a nice slice of that "hush money" that Kirby got not be suspect? GOD BLESS ....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

... no I wasn't on the debate team, I didn't want to send those other kids home crying every day 

That's good of you, ol' pal. I can speak from experience how emotional I get seeing your age related mental decline on this very thread!

Kirby got "hush money"? Please explain. What hush money did he get- why was it hush money- what source do you have for your usual instigative dishonest nonsense?

So now all of those artists are all in cahoots and dishonest. Got it! 

- lbc (a friend of old crooks)

[Nick Furious]

On 7/1/2023 at 9:56 AM, jimjum12 said:

, for example, the Jimmy Olsen vampire .... to me, that is just another example of some of the half baked spoon that Jack was producing by himself at DC. I didn't even bother buying that junk, but Marvel turned their "Vampire" into something that I did.

I'm not a Stan Lee fan, but my respect for him grows from reading this thread.  He didn't have an original idea?  He stole all his ideas from everyone else?  Great!  That just means he was a student of the business!  He was able to observe and learn from others, understand his audience, and put the puzzle pieces together in a way that resulted in a successful product.  The salesman who becomes a manager or sales trainer is not typically the best natural saleman...it's the guy who can learn from others, see what they are doing that works, and become a conduit for spreading those great ideas.  The guy who manages a team of engineers is not typically there because he is the most naturally gifted engineer.  It's because he works well with others, has leadership charisma, can see the bigger picture and bring all the individual pieces together.  That's what Stan Lee seemingly brought to the table.  He saw the whole forest, not just the individual trees.  

[lordbyroncomics]

No, he didn't steal his ideas. That'd be a different thread. He stole credit. And payment for plots that he didn't write.

It's entirely different. You could say every comic creator stole ideas and that's fair and you're right, you can riff off of it and make something new. This is about Stan getting credit for things and not crediting others. I know it's hard to grasp and some of the stirrers on here want to change it into a "poor Stan, he's not praised enough" kind of thing because they enjoy it- it really is just about stealing credit, not ideas. Stealing ideas makes it seem as if you have ideas of your own.

Stan Lee in 1974:  "The Living Eraser might've been my nuttiest idea yet!"

Below:  Jack Kirby's Harvey sci-fi story a few years before the Living Eraser

To be fair it could be just a coincidence. But the coincidences are legion and, if nothing else, are worthy of a conversation.

 

[jimjum12]

On 7/1/2023 at 11:22 AM, Nick Furious said:

I'm not a Stan Lee fan, but my respect for him grows from reading this thread.  He didn't have an original idea?  He stole all his ideas from everyone else?  Great!  That just means he was a student of the business!  He was able to observe and learn from others, understand his audience, and put the puzzle pieces together in a way that resulted in a successful product.  The salesman who becomes a manager or sales trainer is not typically the best natural saleman...it's the guy who can learn from others, see what they are doing that works, and become a conduit for spreading those great ideas.  The guy who manages a team of engineers is not typically there because he is the most naturally gifted engineer.  It's because he works well with others, has leadership charisma, can see the bigger picture and bring all the individual pieces together.  That's what Stan Lee seemingly brought to the table.  He saw the whole forest, not just the individual trees.  

You get it. 

Stan made it cool to be a comic geek. I guess Stan was our Fagan, at least some of us. He made it easy for a bunch of nerdy misfits to feel as if they belonged to something cool. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

.... on the other hand, I was DEVASTATED when Kirby left Marvel. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by jimjum12

[Prince Namor]

On 7/1/2023 at 11:15 AM, jimjum12 said:

I was talking about the selective bias involved in choosing who's quotes are lies and who's aren't ...

Lets see, I can NOT listen to the ARTIST who was THERE and directly quoted what we're talking about... or I can...

Instead listen to the two-faced pseudo writer, who himself benefitted from the Marvel Method AND being the Ghostwriter for 20 years of the person he's protecting (after no one really was looking for him to write for them)...

WHO is using selective bias??? Hearing a Stan Lee worshiper use selective bias as a defense AGAINST the other side is more irony than all of the Lee/Ditko 'brain-teasers' put together.

[shadroch]

On 7/1/2023 at 7:08 AM, Zonker said:

I'm sorry, I can't help you further.  I was asked if Stan chatted up creators by phone, so I found an example where he did so with Don Heck. I was asked to provide some quotes about Stan/Roy's justification for the Marvel Method, so I did so. 

I'm not at all surprised that the quotes are not found to be credible, so we'll have to just leave it there.  

Yes, you are the biased one.    That's the ticket.

[Steven Valdez]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:05 AM, Nick Furious said:

This quote indicates that Stan Lee did in fact call up the writers with plots and high points...and left it to them to fill in the details of the story. Even saying "look, you know how the stories go" would indicate that in filling in the details they were working from his creative direction.

Well no, it means that the artists knew the basic superhero comic formula of 'have a fight, win the fight and throw in some soap opera'.

[shadroch]

On 7/1/2023 at 8:29 AM, jimjum12 said:

You get it. 

Stan made it cool to be a comic geek. I guess Stan was our Fagan, at least some of us. He made it easy for a bunch of nerdy misfits to feel as if they belonged to something cool. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

.... on the other hand, I was DEVASTATED when Kirby left Marvel. 

I was actually devastated when he returned to Marvel.   Stan announced The Return of The King and I'm thinking Marvel signed a deal to produce The Lord Of The Rings.   

It was pretty obvious to me that Kirby wouldn't fit in with the younger writers and artists that dominated Marvel in the mid-1970s. 

Amazing how a change of  "proof readers" can change the final story. 

 

 

 

[Steven Valdez]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:58 AM, shadroch said:

I was actually devastated when he returned to Marvel.   Stan announced The Return of The King and I'm thinking Marvel signed a deal to produce The Lord Of The Rings.   

It was pretty obvious to me that Kirby wouldn't fit in with the younger writers and artists that dominated Marvel in the mid-1970s. 

Amazing how a change of  "proof readers" can change the final story. 

 

 

 

As I keep saying, proofreading is a noble and vital profession.

[Steven Valdez]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:22 AM, Nick Furious said:

 It's because he works well with others, has leadership charisma, can see the bigger picture and bring all the individual pieces together.  That's what Stan Lee seemingly brought to the table. 

He could have brought that all to the table without claiming credit for other people's concepts, surely.

[Doctor Obscure]

On 7/1/2023 at 11:29 AM, jimjum12 said:

You get it. 

Stan made it cool to be a comic geek. I guess Stan was our Fagan, at least some of us. He made it easy for a bunch of nerdy misfits to feel as if they belonged to something cool. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

.... on the other hand, I was DEVASTATED when Kirby left Marvel. 

so thats the "rosebud" lmao

its just that you guys have like, a pathological need for people to accept comic reading even tho the ppl laughing at it dont care about comics..

"made it cool to be a comic geek"  

you dont speak for everybody who read comics in the nineteen sixties surely?

this stuff went on in the eighties too... "comics arent just for kids anymore!"

comic fans need acceptance from the mainstream, thats whats caused so much damage to the business... so much. all because of insecure dorks! ha ha ha ha ha

[shadroch]

Why was a creative genius like Kirby recycling work he'd done as work for hire for other companies?  Even though he did the work, he didn't own it.   If Stan did that, I can only imagine the outrage from the peanut gallery.