My pressing experiment

[burntboy]

Did Matt ever give you a breakdown of grades for each issue prior to him doing work on the books?

 

It appears as if he gave a wide range of grades (8.0-9.6). Since he performed some sort of work, there still was one book with an 8.0, and no books with 9.6. So how exactly did he come up with that range of grades?

 

This "experiment" only shows that Matt was unable to provide an increase in grade, and he could not detect certain resto.

 

i respectfully disagree with the first half of you last statement.

 

there is no earthly way that ANYONE can be CERTAIN as to whether Matt's pressing had any positive impact on the grades or not. in the absence of the books having been already graded by CGC and then broken out and resubbed, there is no suitable basis for comparison.

 

it will always remain a mystery for these 10 books. i would opine that given the owners inability to detect flaws that Matt saw and said were improvable, that the increases in grade may well be minor, but we'll just never know.......... IMHO.

[Jolly Roger-migration]

Did Matt ever give you a breakdown of grades for each issue prior to him doing work on the books?

 

It appears as if he gave a wide range of grades (8.0-9.6). Since he performed some sort of work, there still was one book with an 8.0, and no books with 9.6. So how exactly did he come up with that range of grades?

 

This "experiment" only shows that Matt was unable to provide an increase in grade, and he could not detect certain resto.

 

i respectfully disagree with the first half of you last statement.

 

there is no earthly way that ANYONE can be CERTAIN as to whether Matt's pressing had any positive impact on the grades or not. in the absence of the books having been already graded by CGC and then broken out and resubbed, there is no suitable basis for comparison.

 

it will always remain a mystery for these 10 books. i would opine that given the owners inability to detect flaws that Matt saw and said were improvable, that the increases in grade may well be minor, but we'll just never know.......... IMHO.

 

I agree that we will not know with 100% accuracy if the books were in fact upgraded from their pre-work.

 

Except, based on the grade range from Matt he claims the books are 8.0-9.6. Yet, when the books came back from CGC, there was a 8.0 book and none of the books came back 9.6. The closest being a 9.4.

 

So does this mean that Matt did not improve the 8.0, or that he misgraded a lower graded book?

 

Does this mean that he overgraded a book to give it a 9.6, or that CGC was especially harsh on the 9.4?

 

Again, we may never know, just speculate according to our own views.

[nearmint]

Does this mean that he overgraded a book to give it a 9.6, or that CGC was especially harsh on the 9.4?

 

Matt estimated that the Bat #267 would come back either a 9.4 or a 9.6, so the CGC 9.4 the book received is within the range he estimated.

[burntboy]

Did Matt ever give you a breakdown of grades for each issue prior to him doing work on the books?

 

It appears as if he gave a wide range of grades (8.0-9.6). Since he performed some sort of work, there still was one book with an 8.0, and no books with 9.6. So how exactly did he come up with that range of grades?

 

This "experiment" only shows that Matt was unable to provide an increase in grade, and he could not detect certain resto.

 

i respectfully disagree with the first half of you last statement.

 

there is no earthly way that ANYONE can be CERTAIN as to whether Matt's pressing had any positive impact on the grades or not. in the absence of the books having been already graded by CGC and then broken out and resubbed, there is no suitable basis for comparison.

 

it will always remain a mystery for these 10 books. i would opine that given the owners inability to detect flaws that Matt saw and said were improvable, that the increases in grade may well be minor, but we'll just never know.......... IMHO.

 

I agree that we will not know with 100% accuracy if the books were in fact upgraded from their pre-work.

 

Except, based on the grade range from Matt he claims the books are 8.0-9.6. Yet, when the books came back from CGC, there was a 8.0 book and none of the books came back 9.6. The closest being a 9.4.

 

So does this mean that Matt did not improve the 8.0, or that he misgraded a lower graded book?

 

Does this mean that he overgraded a book to give it a 9.6, or that CGC was especially harsh on the 9.4?

 

Again, we may never know, just speculate according to our own views.

 

i get your point and accept it as a valid point of view. my only comment would be that your premise assumes that Matt Nelson grades books like CGC. i'm sure Matt is like most of us veterans and has his good days and bad days..........

 

ie., Matt sees the book as a VF 8.0. (assumption here that CGC would see it as a 7.5) matt presses it, submits it and it comes back an 8.0. the book has actually been upgraded due to the pressing, even though it might not appear so based on Matts initial grade. (in this scenario the ONLY grades that are important are CGC's). of course the reverse could be true also, so we'll just never know................

[blazingbob]

Well another perspective is after the grading/pressing fees could I have bought the same books in those CGC grades for less than I spent to get the same thing?

 

Maybe I could have bought them already in the holder for less?

 

I'm guessing that these weren't original owner off the rack purchases and you know how many sellers are selling high grade for less than guide.

[uclapeterg]

I thought this was just an experiment... am I wrong?

[Jolly Roger-migration]

Does this mean that he overgraded a book to give it a 9.6, or that CGC was especially harsh on the 9.4?

 

Matt estimated that the Bat #267 would come back either a 9.4 or a 9.6, so the CGC 9.4 the book received is within the range he estimated.

Maybe I misunderstood the initial post. It appears to me as if Matt graded the books as having a high end of 9.6 before pressing. So if the 267 was the best of the group then he would have considered this the 9.6 copy. So if he felt it needed pressing then he also thought it could improve a grade. Otherwise what would be the point of pressing a book you didn't feel could be improved?

 

So again, which scenario is more likely; Matt overgraded or CGC undergraded or Matt's pressing does nothing?

[Ze-man]

 

There are a few people who don't see the logic in this. There are more reasons for submitting than just from a profit potential.

 

Sorry JR, I think at the core of submitting books for "pressing only".

Is enhancement, plain and simple.

Either enhancement of your pocketbook..or enhancing the comic book itself.

Both of which are greed motivated, and joined at the hip.

 

To try and spin it any other way is folly, at least from where I am sitting.

 

Ze-

[Jolly Roger-migration]

 

i get your point and accept it as a valid point of view. my only comment would be that your premise assumes that Matt Nelson grades books like CGC. i'm sure Matt is like most of us veterans and has his good days and bad days..........

 

ie., Matt sees the book as a VF 8.0. (assumption here that CGC would see it as a 7.5) matt presses it, submits it and it comes back an 8.0. the book has actually been upgraded due to the pressing, even though it might not appear so based on Matts initial grade. (in this scenario the ONLY grades that are important are CGC's). of course the reverse could be true also, so we'll just never know................

 

If that were the case, then Matt is in the business of recommending pressing work without having any knowledge of whether it will improve a book or not. It's more of a "better safe than sorry" situation. Knowing that the books will be bound for CGC, shouldn't be be able to grade as close to CGC standards as possible based upon prior submissions? I understand that cannot be done with 100% accuracy, but what percentage is acceptable?

 

I just get the felling as if no work was done and he just submitted them as is, and then if he was wrong would just rely on a "well, CGC graded it wrong" excuse.

[Jolly Roger-migration]

 

There are a few people who don't see the logic in this. There are more reasons for submitting than just from a profit potential.

 

Sorry JR, I think at the core of submitting books for "pressing only".

Is enhancement, plain and simple.

Either enhancement of your pocketbook..or enhancing the comic book itself.

Both of which are greed motivated, and joined at the hip.

 

To try and spin it any other way is folly, at least from where I am sitting.

 

Ze-

 

Submitting books to be pressed is indeed for the purpose of enhancement, there is no disagreement with you on that point.

 

The point I was making to Bob was that motivation behind wanting the enhancement. As a dealer, he felt it was prudent to submit if you weren't going to clear a sizable profit from the end grade.

 

I know with some of my key books, I would want my books to be their best looking. So if pressing was able to improve one of my books then I would be happy. I wouldn't plan on selling, but I would know for my own benefit that short of restoration, I would have a nicer copy of an issue.

[Ze-man]

Fair enough... we each have a different perspective on the topic.

 

I think you should just love your key books as they are...No need to put lipstick on a crease or two to appreciate them more.

 

 

Ze-

[THE_BEYONDER]

 

There are a few people who don't see the logic in this. There are more reasons for submitting than just from a profit potential.

 

Sorry JR, I think at the core of submitting books for "pressing only".

Is enhancement, plain and simple.

Either enhancement of your pocketbook..or enhancing the comic book itself.

Both of which are greed motivated, and joined at the hip.

 

To try and spin it any other way is folly, at least from where I am sitting.

 

Ze-

 

Submitting books to be pressed is indeed for the purpose of enhancement, there is no disagreement with you on that point.

 

The point I was making to Bob was that motivation behind wanting the enhancement. As a dealer, he felt it was prudent to submit if you weren;t going to clear a sizable profit from the end grade.

 

I know with some of my key books, I would want my books to be their best looking. So if pressing was able to improve one of my books then I would be happy. I wouldn't plan on selling, but I would know for my own benefit that short of restoration, I would have a nicer copy of an issue.

 

I think a "pressable to 9.6" book is better unpressed than pressed.

[nearmint]

Does this mean that he overgraded a book to give it a 9.6, or that CGC was especially harsh on the 9.4?

 

Matt estimated that the Bat #267 would come back either a 9.4 or a 9.6, so the CGC 9.4 the book received is within the range he estimated.

Maybe I misunderstood the initial post. It appears to me as if Matt graded the books as having a high end of 9.6 before pressing. So if the 267 was the best of the group then he would have considered this the 9.6 copy. So if he felt it needed pressing then he also thought it could improve a grade. Otherwise what would be the point of pressing a book you didn't feel could be improved?

 

So again, which scenario is more likely; Matt overgraded or CGC undergraded or Matt's pressing does nothing?

 

Matt graded 20 books in a range of 8.0 to 9.6. JR only had half of those presssed. I suspect the 9.6 was not one of them, but only JR can answer that.

[Matt Nelson]

 

i get your point and accept it as a valid point of view. my only comment would be that your premise assumes that Matt Nelson grades books like CGC. i'm sure Matt is like most of us veterans and has his good days and bad days..........

 

ie., Matt sees the book as a VF 8.0. (assumption here that CGC would see it as a 7.5) matt presses it, submits it and it comes back an 8.0. the book has actually been upgraded due to the pressing, even though it might not appear so based on Matts initial grade. (in this scenario the ONLY grades that are important are CGC's). of course the reverse could be true also, so we'll just never know................

 

If that were the case, then Matt is in the business of recommending pressing work without having any knowledge of whether it will improve a book or not. It's more of a "better safe than sorry" situation. Knowing that the books will be bound for CGC, shouldn't be be able to grade as close to CGC standards as possible based upon prior submissions? I understand that cannot be done with 100% accuracy, but what percentage is acceptable?

 

I just get the felling as if no work was done and he just submitted them as is, and then if he was wrong would just rely on a "well, CGC graded it wrong" excuse.

 

 

The most important aspect of this business for me is educating the client on how to screen his books before I see them. I place emphasis on showing people how to spot good candidates, because this ultimately leads to a positive end result (i.e. good grades). There is a learning curve; I notice by the third submission, I'm getting great candidates that will achieve high grades, with very few kickbacks.

 

Once the submitter has a good idea of what to look for, it's almost certain that most of the books I screen will be good candidates. The "better safe than sorry" situation is somewhat true in marginal upgrade cases, but it implies a much more clumsy approach than what I take. I determine estimated grades with great care. It's the crux of my reputation.

 

As far as giving 8.0-9.6 range on the Batmans...it's not a blanket range. Each book has its own estimate, and is not related to the next one on the list.

[OldGuy]

I think a "pressable to 9.6" book is better unpressed than pressed.

 

[Matt Nelson]

Matt;

 

Just wanted to say that it's certainly nice to have you here on these boards to present your side of the story. )

 

 

 

First off, let me say that CGC is #1 at spotting restoration.

I would have to disagree with your opinion here since I feel that the professional restorers such as Susan, Mark, Tracy, and yourself should actually be better at detecting restoration. After all, the graders at CGC have not really had any technical training or years of actual experience with restoration.

 

 

When I say CGC, I mean their restoration expert. Chris is great, and given their transitionary period right now, I hope this continues. I do agree that one who actually does the restoration/pressing/trimming/whatever will have a leg up on CGC because they are the innovators of new techniques, and it's up to CGC to figure them out.

 

 

It's not an exact science. Expecting perfect accuarcy is unrealistic.

Although you was really talking about grading here, I also feel your statement here would also apply to restoration detection. Especially with respect to the more difficult to detect resto such as micro trimming and pressing. It's totally unrealistic for collectors to expect CGC to have 100% accuracy here.

 

I was actually talking about restoration detection, but you're right. I think the people most shocked by the trimming scandal where the ones expecting perfection. Like I said, I'm sure there will be more in the future.

 

 

 

I saw things that could be improved on each of these books, and I do believe several received higher grades as a result. I don't press every book I see. I turn books away all the time.

Certainly glad to hear that you do not press every single book you see. Any idea or records of what your estimated grades were for these books prior to pressing?

 

I used to do before grades in my evaluations, but it seemed pointless. Comparing my befores to CGC afters--it's like apples and oranges. As suggested by others in prior posts, comparing CGC before and after grades is a much more scientific approach, and yields tangible results. This is not to say one should only press CGC graded books. Pressing raw books is a more cost effective approach in most cases.

 

 

Anyways, Matt, can you answer a much more important question for us?

 

Can you give us a status update with respect to your book on Pedigrees? I am certainly looking forward to the release of this book and I feel it could be a truly wonderful and beautiful addition to the hobby.

 

Well, there are some very exciting things that have just developed within the last two weeks pertaining to the book. There will be an official release in the next few weeks regarding this. Very exciting stuff.

[linmoth]

And I still want to know the story behind the Western Penn pedigree.

 

Brad: I guess you will have to wait for Matt's book.

 

 

Best, Tom

[Red Hook]

Actually, I'm waiting for Steve Ritter's book!

[tth2]

And I still want to know the story behind the Western Penn pedigree.

 

Think linmoth will ever spill the beans?

 

No. And until then....I would observe caution. Not enough of the backstory is available to know how books are being fed to the market.

Are you talking about the main part of the collection from the 1950s and 1960s? Tom can correct me, but I think most if not all of that is already in collectors' hands. So there is no single presence "feeding" the books into the market, they appear when individual collectors choose to sell them. If you're talking about the BA stuff that continues to come onto the market through Westernpacomics, my understanding is that this IS new supply being fed from the OO's (or his son's) collection. No different from the Boston collection, which appears to be inexhaustible and is still generating new supply.

[ronm3-migration]

I thought this was just an experiment... am I wrong?

 

he did say it was an experiment so what he spent is irrelevant. All this experiment shows was that he wasted a few bucks. I would have never wasted my time on silverage books anyway. The real test would be to get a GOLDEN AGE pressing candidate book get it graded then resubmit after a press and see if the grade goes up. Now that's a whole different paint job and a true test.