My pressing experiment

[BUGAB00-migration]

Matt Nelson said:

 

I buy a lot from shows, and on occasion a book will turn up trimmed or have a dot of color touch that I miss. I assume a previous owner just messed with his book and I got stung.

 

So why all the fuss when CGC misses a micro trim job? Matt admitted that he's missed some, so it's apparent that occasionally some small bit of restoration will slip by even restoration professionals.

 

Nobody is going to catch every bit of restoration on every book they check...not Matt...not Sue...not Steve....nobody. No matter who checks your books, that's all it is...a restoration check that diminishes the odds that you are getting a restored book.

[ArAich]

[BUGAB00-migration]

STALKER!

[kiltman]

[ArAich]

STALKER!

 

SHILL...

[burntboy]

there seems to be two issues being discussed here so here's my 2 cents on each.

 

the experiment was doomed from the start as ultimately all you have at the end is a discussion about grading prowess. (you and Matt compared to 3 CGC graders).

i don't see what could be learned from this.

 

what would have been VERY interesting is if the 10 books had already been graded, cracked out, pressed and resubbed - then there would be some legitimate comparisons to draw some conclusions from.............IMHO.

 

secondly, the issue that most folks initially jumped on is the one of the trimmed book having been resubbed and graded blue. i guess the lesson here is that some "micro-trimming" may be so difficult to detect that it will not always be seen as such. (and with different teams of graders, even more likely to possibly happen).

 

anyone who thought that CGC was infallible was simply hoping for too much. i prefer to think that they catch most of the bad S*%T most of the time. i will still take a book in a blue slab over a raw copy any day (and i don't care who is selling it raw!!).

 

i just have to go with the odds. the opinion of 3 professional graders vs joe schmoe's opinion. a professional team with years of resto detection training vs joe schmoe. a team with no financial incentive to grade the book anything other than accurately vs joe schmoe who has every financial incentive to overgrade and overlook resto. as i said, gotta go with the odds.................and i now know enough NOT to expect perfection from CGC............and i also do not feel personally confident in my amateur abilities, to try and go it alone.

 

ok, that feels better - let 'em rip.............

[Matt Nelson]

Jediknight is so right...this email was a slip on my part. I should know better than to put down in email what should only be spoken. Some things to clarify here...

 

First off, let me say that CGC is #1 at spotting restoration. These guys have seen more books than anyone else, and I am constantly amazed at their consistency. I run a lot of books through them, and I rarely think they dropped the ball. I know many people will think I have to say this because of my business relationships, but I stand behind it 100%.

 

The Ewert situation was bad, but we should have seen it coming a long time ago. Someone is always trying to build a better mousetrap out there. I'm betting there will be other "scandals" in the future. The bottom line is that,when it happens, the parties involved take the necessary steps to rectify the situation as best they can.

 

My comment about getting the trimmed book through CGC was meant to sooth Art, since I figured he was upset about the Batman #206. It is not something I go around telling everyone, and in hindsight it was a mistake to say it. I don't think you can just send anything through twice and get a universal label. I do think that, given the recent scandal, CGC is trying harder than ever to catch trimming (which is a good thing), and maybe that means a few innocent books possibly get caught in the net.

 

If one is inclined to spend the cert fees, they can test CGC's grade by resubmission. Many people resubmit books several times simply to get a one point upgrade, or even to challenge the claim that restoration or trimming was discovered. I do think CGC is the most accurate graders in the hobby, but ultimately their grade is their opinion, and that opinion will fluctuate month to month, year to year. It's not an exact science. Expecting perfect accuarcy is unrealistic.

 

I always offer a refund on my resto check fee if anything I evaluate comes back green or purple. And what if this Batman #206 does come back universal on a second run? Who's right?

 

As far as pressing the Batmans for Art, here are my estimates, and the grades he received:

 

141 8.5 - 9.0 / CGC=8.0

165 9.0 - 9.2 / CGC=9.2

180 9.2 / CGC=9.4

188 9.0 - 9.2 / CGC=8.5

198 9.2 / CGC=9.2

206 9.0 / CGC=9.0 cover trimmed

210 8.5 - 9.0 / CGC=9.0

211 9.0 / CGC=9.2

224 9.0 - 9.2 / CGC=9.2

267 9.4 - 9.6 / CGC=9.4

 

Two below estimate, two above estimate, and rest within estimate. Were the pressings necessary? I saw things that could be improved on each of these books, and I do believe several received higher grades as a result. I don't press every book I see. I turn books away all the time.

 

As far as whether this was worth it for Art depends on what he paid for the books. Once he received my evaluations, he should have determined then and there whether it was feasible. He paid for a look into the proverbial crystal ball, and then after the fact said it wasn't worth it...I don't understand what was missed.

 

Matt

[BUGAB00-migration]

[jokersrevenge]

harry, I have to agree with your statement. I wish I had gotten the comics, had them graded, and cracked them out and had them pressed, then resubbed them. Although, I think that there is enough variability with cgc grading that it would still not be a big enough sample to obtain the answers I was looking for.

 

Matt, I told you in my email that I was happy with the grades. I have never said you did a bad job, in fact you did great. I was just suprised and disappointed about the plod. Recall that I sent in 20 books to you and only had 10 graded by cgc, so overall you saved me some money by not getting my lower books graded.

 

I should have asked you first about printing the email, so that was wrong on my part, and I'm sorry.

 

I need to look more strictly at the books I am buying.

[Matt Nelson]

Thanks, Art. I just didn't want anyone to get the wrong impression. Sorry to come off so strong.

[jediknight]

No baa-ing or bleating from this end of the auditorium....I'll still keep submitting books for sure, I have an order of 30 HG late 70s/early 80s books heading towards CGC on Monday.

 

Oh my gosh! I'm getting my 1,000 lot in early Monday to beat you there!

[lou_fine]

Matt;

 

Just wanted to say that it's certainly nice to have you here on these boards to present your side of the story.

 

 

First off, let me say that CGC is #1 at spotting restoration.

I would have to disagree with your opinion here since I feel that the professional restorers such as Susan, Mark, Tracy, and yourself should actually be better at detecting restoration. After all, the graders at CGC have not really had any technical training or years of actual experience with restoration.

 

 

 

It's not an exact science. Expecting perfect accuarcy is unrealistic.

Although you was really talking about grading here, I also feel your statement here would also apply to restoration detection. Especially with respect to the more difficult to detect resto such as micro trimming and pressing. It's totally unrealistic for collectors to expect CGC to have 100% accuracy here.

 

 

 

I saw things that could be improved on each of these books, and I do believe several received higher grades as a result. I don't press every book I see. I turn books away all the time.

Certainly glad to hear that you do not press every single book you see. Any idea or records of what your estimated grades were for these books prior to pressing?

 

 

 

Anyways, Matt, can you answer a much more important question for us?

 

Can you give us a status update with respect to your book on Pedigrees? I am certainly looking forward to the release of this book and I feel it could be a truly wonderful and beautiful addition to the hobby.

[nearmint]

Based upon your little experiment here, what is the exact reason for you to join the anti-pressing side now?

 

This was a good question that Lou asked. What's the answer, JR?

[WonderClassics-migration]

I would have to disagree with your opinion here since I feel that the professional restorers such as Susan, Mark, Tracy, and yourself should actually be better at detecting restoration. After all, the graders at CGC have not really had any technical training or years of actual experience with restoration.

 

I believe that Steve Borock did spend some time learning methods of restoration from a professional before starting with CGC, but I'm not sure who. In any case, they must have learned a lot from Chris Friesen. He ran his own lab for 5 years before CGC, and I'm sure that he's taught the primary graders what they needed to know. Chris also had an article in an issue of Wizard (before he joined CGC) where he showed how he restored an early issue of Detective Comics step by step, so he is the real deal.

[ronm3-migration]

Hell. I'll take the The pressed Batman 180 9.4. Send it on down my man. I will happily take Joker Revenges sloppy seconds. and a little of this and maybe some of this what do you say?

[tth2]

secondly, the issue that most folks initially jumped on is the one of the trimmed book having been resubbed and graded blue. i guess the lesson here is that some "micro-trimming" may be so difficult to detect that it will not always be seen as such. (and with different teams of graders, even more likely to possibly happen).

Harry, excellent post. The only thing I slightly disagree on is the statement I`ve quoted above, IF the resubmission of this trimmed book was done post-Ewert. I believe Steve Borock said something to the effect that CGC were going to use scans to help detect micro-trimming, so I would find it extremely distressing if they missed the trimming after putting this new process in place. At a bare minimum, CGC must maintain a database of all identified trimmed books, so they can do a quick check to make sure someone isn`t trying to slip one by them a second time around.

[tth2]

First off, let me say that CGC is #1 at spotting restoration.

I would have to disagree with your opinion here since I feel that the professional restorers such as Susan, Mark, Tracy, and yourself should actually be better at detecting restoration. After all, the graders at CGC have not really had any technical training or years of actual experience with restoration.

Lou, what training is it that you think Susan, Mark, Tracy or Matt have received that the current resto detectors at CGC have not? Given that Susan was the resto detection expert for the big Sotheby`s auctions, it would appear that she blew more than a few cases, no? In any event, restoration detection is, in my opinion, a line of business where any formal study or degree would mean a whole lot less to me than apprenticing for a period of years with a recognized expert. In fact, isn`t apprenticing effectively what Litch, Haspel and Borock have been doing by working with Chris Friesen all these years? (and you could say that Borock was not exactly a novice in detecting resto when he started working with Friesen).

[WonderClassics-migration]

In fact, isn`t apprenticing effectively what Litch, Haspel and Borock have been doing by working with Chris Friesen all these years? (and you could say that Borock was not exactly a novice in detecting resto when he started working with Friesen).

 

I did write something similar to that statement just a few posts earlier.

[burntboy]

secondly, the issue that most folks initially jumped on is the one of the trimmed book having been resubbed and graded blue. i guess the lesson here is that some "micro-trimming" may be so difficult to detect that it will not always be seen as such. (and with different teams of graders, even more likely to possibly happen).

Harry, excellent post. The only thing I slightly disagree on is the statement I`ve quoted above, IF the resubmission of this trimmed book was done post-Ewert. I believe Steve Borock said something to the effect that CGC were going to use scans to help detect micro-trimming, so I would find it extremely distressing if they missed the trimming after putting this new process in place. At a bare minimum, CGC must maintain a database of all identified trimmed books, so they can do a quick check to make sure someone isn`t trying to slip one by them a second time around.

 

Good point, Tim........but here's where i'm still a bit confused; exactly how will the scans be used?? i've assumed that they will look for existing scans initially and then begin to scan all books eventually. this would enable them to perform the same kind of check as Abrams did on the first Ewert book (the FF #3, i believe).

 

but even in this post-ewert world, books being sent in now with micro trimming will likely not have a scan on file anywhere. as such, making a scan now will not aid in the process going forward for that particular book. quite frankly, the process of trying to pull up scans of "some" books (let's say valuable, initially) still seems like a clumsy and costly operation.

 

or do you see scanning the books now, somehow being part of a current resto detection process??

[lighthouse]

Frankly, apprenticing under someone who has beaten the CGC system would be an even better qualification.

 

Vegas doesn't employ criminals any more... but for a long time they hired away the people who had cheated them, to improve their detection skills...

 

Someone who has studied under Dupcak-Ewert-etc would be an asset...

 

Just some food for thought.